[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

. . . And look where it got them. Supposed "higher profit margins" didn't matter in the end did it?

The Camaro SS (sports car) didn't have safety features a $34k Camry commuter car had. That would've gone a long way in convincing buyers to not worry about visibility.

I am glad my Camaro doesn't have the safety features that Toyota does I do not need the nannies to drive never did. Wife and I have a Subaru Legacy with that stuff and the precollision braking feature keeps randomly malfunctioning and freaking out 8 car lengths away when they aren't braking or slowing down so I have to smash the gas pedal to over ride it. There are others that are super annoying but I will keep this short and on topic.

As far as visibility is concerned I am in agreement with others from another thread. If you set your mirrors right traffic going from your rearview mirror will transition to your side mirrors perfectly with no blind spots and it is exactly how mine are set. That is not meant as a jab in anyway I just had the experience to drive many different vehicles in my time and in my personal opinion the visibility is not bad.

[RamAir02]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

I am glad my Camaro doesn't have the safety features that Toyota does I do not need the nannies to drive never did. Wife and I have a Subaru Legacy with that stuff and the precollision braking feature keeps randomly malfunctioning and freaking out 8 car lengths away when they aren't braking or slowing down so I have to smash the gas pedal to over ride it. There are others that are super annoying but I will keep this short and on topic.

As far as visibility is concerned I am in agreement with others from another thread. If you set your mirrors right traffic going from your rearview mirror will transition to your side mirrors perfectly with no blind spots and it is exactly how mine are set. That is not meant as a jab in anyway I just had the experience to drive many different vehicles in my time and in my personal opinion the visibility is not bad.

Ugh, similar experience with my wife's 2023 MB GLE. A handful of times now when backing up and NOTHING behind me, it jams on the brakes. Scares the shit out of me since it feels like and makes me think I hit something. I swear that "feature" has a mind of its own.

[triggerjerk]

Originally Posted by Devstrike

I am glad my Camaro doesn't have the safety features that Toyota does I do not need the nannies to drive never did. Wife and I have a Subaru Legacy with that stuff and the precollision braking feature keeps randomly malfunctioning and freaking out 8 car lengths away when they aren't braking or slowing down so I have to smash the gas pedal to over ride it. There are others that are super annoying but I will keep this short and on topic.

As far as visibility is concerned I am in agreement with others from another thread. If you set your mirrors right traffic going from your rearview mirror will transition to your side mirrors perfectly with no blind spots and it is exactly how mine are set. That is not meant as a jab in anyway I just had the experience to drive many different vehicles in my time and in my personal opinion the visibility is not bad.

The problem is, the buying public at large wants those things.
Perception is reality as well and GM did nothing to address it.

[Devstrike]

GM didn't do a good job marketing the car we can debate this and that but at the end of the day it comes down to GM just not caring after they moved everyone off 7th gen development. Point is if they cared they might have marketed more and decided what the actual Camaro customer wanted and what they didn't want.


Also in the last decade from what I have seen from this country perception apparently can be on a individual standpoint and can differ from reality. The visibility concerns I cannot really take personally as an indicator because on this forum and other Camaro groups facebook included its mixed with people like me and then the others saying its not great. I have also come across people that have actually not driven or owned a 6th gen Camaro just saying things about the car too on this subject and others. A complaint that I think everyone can agree with though is drive thru runs are difficult and it does suck you can't fit a helmet through the window. I honestly though wouldn't change a thing about my car and I owned it three years now since new outside of maybe some cosmetics like wheels in the future or something along those lines.

[1fastz28]

I get that we are all enthusiasts and we love our cars, but from a business standpoint the Chevy Equinox in 2022 sold over 212,xxx units. The Camaro sold basically 1/10th of that, there just isn't a business case for something like that. Regardless of any government fuel stipulations or whatever, the market decides what people buy, and people simply don't buy coupes. Sad, but it is what it is.

[Iconic]

Lets dream big

2024 Camaro Z/28 with the Z06 5.5L V8 flat plane crank 670 hp

'Dream' is the operative word in my post

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by mariojas

Relevant... meh. I had 2018 Charger Scat Pack, then 2021 Charger Scat Pack Widebody. When I bought that "old" 2022 ZL1 I was amazed - better interior, much better handling.
Dodge improvements were relevant only in cool factor department, nothing else.

I'm sure you're very correct in all that you mentioned. But the real issue is how many others have had the chance (or desire) to directly compare the two before buying? The mass of those buying are likely the types who are swayed easily by a good ad, "affordable" financing, and most importantly, you're own aforementioned "cool factor".

I have no doubt that moving from a Challenger/Charger to a Camaro, a ZL1 nonetheless, would show how much the "updates/upgrades" to the former are limited in comparison with the latter. But again, how many buyers will ever see that? THAT, is where the issue truely lies.

[jamala00]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

I get that we are all enthusiasts and we love our cars, but from a business standpoint the Chevy Equinox in 2022 sold over 212,xxx units. The Camaro sold basically 1/10th of that, there just isn't a business case for something like that. Regardless of any government fuel stipulations or whatever, the market decides what people buy, and people simply don't buy coupes. Sad, but it is what it is.

Spot On!

[mariojas]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I'm sure you're very correct in all that you mentioned. But the real issue is how many others have had the chance (or desire) to directly compare the two before buying? The mass of those buying are likely the types who are swayed easily by a good ad, "affordable" financing, and most importantly, you're own aforementioned "cool factor".

I have no doubt that moving from a Challenger/Charger to a Camaro, a ZL1 nonetheless, would show how much the "updates/upgrades" to the former are limited in comparison with the latter. But again, how many buyers will ever see that? THAT, is where the issue truely lies.

Agree. They could spent few bucks on some limited ads plus add a new wheel option for 1LE and ZL1/E They did nothing to those higher end models.
It's a kind of "they have greener grass" mentality, but you walk up close enough and you see bare spots.

Imagine how much more "market adjustment" we would get if all those people actually knew how good Camaro is

[mariojas]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

I get that we are all enthusiasts and we love our cars, but from a business standpoint the Chevy Equinox in 2022 sold over 212,xxx units. The Camaro sold basically 1/10th of that, there just isn't a business case for something like that. Regardless of any government fuel stipulations or whatever, the market decides what people buy, and people simply don't buy coupes. Sad, but it is what it is.

They used to say "win on Saturday, sell on Sunday", meaning, you have to have sporty and/or luxury offerings to bring up value of the brand.
But seeing current generation they will be most likely drown in by vegan leather and CO2 extractors, not sports cars...

[Hops]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

I get that we are all enthusiasts and we love our cars, but from a business standpoint the Chevy Equinox in 2022 sold over 212,xxx units. The Camaro sold basically 1/10th of that, there just isn't a business case for something like that. Regardless of any government fuel stipulations or whatever, the market decides what people buy, and people simply don't buy coupes. Sad, but it is what it is.

I don't think straight number of sales is the whole story. Our household has purchased more non-enthusiast than enthusiast GM vehicles, yet it was a C6 i owned 15years ago that started us on that path.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by 1fastz28

I get that we are all enthusiasts and we love our cars, but from a business standpoint the Chevy Equinox in 2022 sold over 212,xxx units. The Camaro sold basically 1/10th of that, there just isn't a business case for something like that. Regardless of any government fuel stipulations or whatever, the market decides what people buy, and people simply don't buy coupes. Sad, but it is what it is.

Speaking of volume vs niche sales, this mentality of focusing solely on the highest selling segment is counterintuitive to me, and I don't buy it in this case either. Are you/they sure there is zero correlation between high horsepower sports car sales and mundane SUV lot movement? I'm almost certain there is, just look at Dodge; however, the reality IMO is that they only consider the Corvette in this context and the Camaro has indeed become the red headed stepchild.

The silver lining is what mariojas mentioned, we can still get a world class sports car on the cheeeeep, with little to no "market adjustment"


EDIT: Hops has just made my first point while I was typing, heh.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Speaking of volume vs niche sales, this mentality of focusing solely on the highest selling segment is counterintuitive to me, and I don't buy it in this case either. Are you/they sure there is zero correlation between high horsepower sports car sales and mundane SUV lot movement? I'm almost certain there is, just look at Dodge; however, the reality IMO is that they only consider the Corvette in this context and the Camaro has indeed become the red headed stepchild.

The silver lining is what mariojas mentioned, we can still get a world class sports car on the cheeeeep, with little to no "market adjustment"


EDIT: Hops has just made my first point while I was typing, heh.

100% v6, R/T and Scat sales are a direct result of Hellcat lineup. Maybe not every sale. But it is a proven fact it helped a bunch

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

100% v6, R/T and Scat sales are a direct result of Hellcat lineup. Maybe not every sale. But it is a proven fact it helped a bunch

Yup. I'm sure marketing departments even came up with a buzzword for it, say halo effect or something similar.