[LESS1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I pass the throne to you my friend. You are a worthy successor to the legacy. LOL!! I swear, I don't even have to post on here anymore because you say exactly what I want to say...sometimes even before I can say it myself!!

LOL... I'm flattered brother. How about you take the day shift and I'll cover nights?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Yea ultimately the performance gains are all that matter. I added some SVE pp2 wheels to mine with some nt05s and it's hooking a lot better but now it's easier to bog on a launch sort of like the camaro thats pretty finicky about that.

My cousin added a muffler delete cat back to his GT and he hasn't logged anything but the car noticeably picked up some power evident by when we run our cars together.

I couldn't find the weight of the SVE SP2 wheels. The SVE R350 (GT350R replicas) are 24 lbs each. Factory PP1 wheels are 33 lbs each. The bolt ons I did picked up quite a bit on the bottom and mid range, with a noticeably stronger pull up top. The Borla S-type makes very good gains for a catback. 20 ft-lbs at the rear wheels avg up to 4000 rpm (with a peak gain of 33 ft-lbs at 2400 rpm), and 13 rwhp gains up top:

https://motoiq.com/testing-borlas-s-...-mustang-gt/5/

I think the combination of the 4 mods made a very nice difference without risking warranty items. Plus, the lighter wheels - reducing 36 lbs of rotational mass is worth about 70 lbs of static weight, or like adding another 10 hp +/-. I'll eventually test acceleration w/ the lighter wheels, but I've already calculated the "expected" acceleration gains like I mentioned in my previous post.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Also idk what "drag mode" argument you're talking about but I have seen first hand base a10s i n sport mode running as fast as pp1 a10s in drag mode. The drag mode seemed more consitent with quick passes but the base car in sport mode was capable of matching it in it's fastest runs though the spreads between runs were more varied.

This was in reference to the GT* that some like to mention here. They say to run 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and 1/4 mile in 12.1 like C&D it has to be a PP1 in Drag mode w/ A10 w/ Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Mine is a GT* (PP1 w/ A10 and PS4S), but I hit 0-60 in 3.80 seconds bone stock but with my winter Michelin all seasons in Sport+ mode. I will say that it would be quicker in drag mode, but the shifts from 1-2 and 2-3 are so violent, spinning those all seasons like crazy, that the car cuts power when the tires spin, hurting times. Hence, Sport+

To get apples to apples comparisons, I've been running the car at full tire pressure, no burnouts, same settings, and then correct for DA.

I'm pleased with the acceleration splits with just a few bolt ons. 20-70 mph in 3.28 seconds is ZL1 territory. Knocking another ~0.05 seconds off that with the lighter wheels is icing on the cake.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

The graph is severe because it shows a much bigger torque dip than most other lt1 graphs? So what if its on the same graph as the ls3 and ls7 on there, doesn't change the fact that it shows a severe torque drop off compared to other lt1 graphs?

You know this and its obvious, but again this one graph is convenient to your argument.

This all started with you erroneously talking about the 5.0s "top end" advantage. I showed you that the top end your talking about was due to gearing. Regardless of your critique of the lt1s power/torque curve it performs well up top so its a moot point.

It's not "convenient" to my argument. It shows a direct comparison between the LS3, LS7 and LT1. The LT1 torque curve drop seems severe because it is severe.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Do you work for Ford? Why do you care about sales? The Dodge Viper was a beast, didn't sell well and died. Who cares, still a beast. If sales

The mustang is a badass car and sells well, the camaro is the better sports car regardless of sales.

Most of us don't buy our camaros cars for their practicality or how popular it is but rather how good of a sports car it is. If I had to compromise I'd just get a charger because it's not like the mustang is really that much more "livable".

Like many uninformed people you're probably still basing your camaro vs mustang impressions on the 5th gen camaro, which is a dog and a pig next to a 6th gen.

You should care about sales. Sales are the driving force for further development of the brand. If the car doesn't support itself, it dies. Camaro is dying, which is why GM has done nothing to it since the ZLE. Sure, the LT1 was a decent attempt at injecting something into the brand but it was just a shuffling of parts.

Like other uninformed people, you are making baseless assumptions to back up your opinion.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You should care about sales. Sales are the driving force for further development of the brand. If the car doesn't support itself, it dies. Camaro is dying, which is why GM has done nothing to it since the ZLE. Sure, the LT1 was a decent attempt at injecting something into the brand but it was just a shuffling of parts.

Like other uninformed people, you are making baseless assumptions to back up your opinion.

Okay, so what should I do? Buy another Camaro? Well, if you donate to me, I am not against that idea...

That's why I don't really care about sales. Other than saying good things about the car when prompted by others, I can't do anything about it. I don't work for GM, either, so it doesn't affect me.

Caring about things you can't control is a good way to make yourself stressed, and the fact that it doesn't affect me makes the said stress completely unnecessary.

Now I think it's alright to discuss it for fun but don't take yourself too seriously. If you want to help, get off your armchair and apply for a marketing position at GM or write to them.

Sent from toaster or something

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Okay, so what should I do? Buy another Camaro? Well, if you donate to me, I am not against that idea...

That's why I don't really care about sales. Other than saying good things about the car when prompted by others, I can't do anything about it. I don't work for GM, either, so it doesn't affect me.

Caring about things you can't control is a good way to make yourself stressed, and the fact that it doesn't affect me makes the said stress completely unnecessary.

Now I think it's alright to discuss it for fun but don't take yourself too seriously. If you want to help, get off your armchair and apply for a marketing position at GM or write to them.

Sent from toaster or something

THIS!!

I don't really care about brand loyalty or model name. As long as whatever car it is fulfills my requirements, then I am good. This will change as years go by. I don't care at all about sales numbers, that's a Corp. issue and I am not on the Board of Directors or their CFO, so not my issue.

I have had many brands and many models. As years go by, some manufacturers get the formula right, others ruin the formula (BMW, I am talking to you!!!). I will gravitate to whatever brand has the right formula for the right price. At this present time that is the SS 1LE for me.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

It's not "convenient" to my argument. It shows a direct comparison between the LS3, LS7 and LT1. The LT1 torque curve drop seems severe because it is severe.



You should care about sales. Sales are the driving force for further development of the brand. If the car doesn't support itself, it dies. Camaro is dying, which is why GM has done nothing to it since the ZLE. Sure, the LT1 was a decent attempt at injecting something into the brand but it was just a shuffling of parts.

Like other uninformed people, you are making baseless assumptions to back up your opinion.

No it is for the sake of your argument because you've been shown other graphs with a more consistent curve and seem to ignore them.

I don't care about sales, I love the 6th gen camaro but am not a brand or model loyalist. I buy the best sports car for my needs, if there is a 7th gen and its what I deem the best in class then it'd be on my radar, if not I'll be on to the next best thing. Right now the 6th gen is the best pony manual car bar none, regardless of sales.

You're the one with a biased opinion making baseless statements. You claimed the mustang's engine had some big top end advantage and were proven wrong. Now in turn you're trying to prove something using some inconsistent lt1 dyno graph, that is ultimately not relevant since the performance is there.

Again if your camaro exprience is based on a slow heavy 5th gen I can see how it would be skewed but it is irrelevant to the 6th gen.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I couldn't find the weight of the SVE SP2 wheels. The SVE R350 (GT350R replicas) are 24 lbs each. Factory PP1 wheels are 33 lbs each. The bolt ons I did picked up quite a bit on the bottom and mid range, with a noticeably stronger pull up top. The Borla S-type makes very good gains for a catback. 20 ft-lbs at the rear wheels avg up to 4000 rpm (with a peak gain of 33 ft-lbs at 2400 rpm), and 13 rwhp gains up top:

https://motoiq.com/testing-borlas-s-...-mustang-gt/5/

I think the combination of the 4 mods made a very nice difference without risking warranty items. Plus, the lighter wheels - reducing 36 lbs of rotational mass is worth about 70 lbs of static weight, or like adding another 10 hp +/-. I'll eventually test acceleration w/ the lighter wheels, but I've already calculated the "expected" acceleration gains like I mentioned in my previous post.



This was in reference to the GT* that some like to mention here. They say to run 0-60 in 3.8 seconds and 1/4 mile in 12.1 like C&D it has to be a PP1 in Drag mode w/ A10 w/ Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. Mine is a GT* (PP1 w/ A10 and PS4S), but I hit 0-60 in 3.80 seconds bone stock but with my winter Michelin all seasons in Sport+ mode. I will say that it would be quicker in drag mode, but the shifts from 1-2 and 2-3 are so violent, spinning those all seasons like crazy, that the car cuts power when the tires spin, hurting times. Hence, Sport+

To get apples to apples comparisons, I've been running the car at full tire pressure, no burnouts, same settings, and then correct for DA.

I'm pleased with the acceleration splits with just a few bolt ons. 20-70 mph in 3.28 seconds is ZL1 territory. Knocking another ~0.05 seconds off that with the lighter wheels is icing on the cake.

Hadn't done much research in terms of gains for a 5.0 cat back that makes sense and the cars performance is backing it up. We have ran his GT against my ss 1le a lot but have yet to run it against my GT. Should be interesting, stock with pp2 wheels vs pp1 with a cat back.

In my research before purchase, the SVE Sp2s were right around 24 pounds each also so it's a nice upgrade over the stockers and regardless my main reason for purchase was that imo they are the best looking s550 wheels. The SVE R350s look great too btw, just going for a pp2 look with the pp2 front splitter eventually getting installed as well. I'm also running a 19x10 with a 285 in the front and 19x11 305 in the rear instead of the factory pp2 19x11 305s squared. Less rotating mass, less drag, and fits in the fender cleaner than a factory pp2 imo.

[Bosse'sBoss]

The 6th gen Camaros are better than any Mustang and would go H2H VS the Shelbys

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

No it is for the sake of your argument because you've been shown other graphs with a more consistent curve and seem to ignore them.

The charts you posted only have one chart that shows torque and horsepower on the same graph. Not to mention the torque scale is twice what the horsepower scale is, so any changes will be shown as half of the actual change, relative to horsepower. That's why the torque curve doesn't seem to drop as significantly.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I don't care about sales, I love the 6th gen camaro but am not a brand or model loyalist. I buy the best sports car for my needs, if there is a 7th gen and its what I deem the best in class then it'd be on my radar, if not I'll be on to the next best thing. Right now the 6th gen is the best pony manual car bar none, regardless of sales.

If there is a 7th gen and that's a big if. Why is a big if? Because the Camaro sales don't justify the investment of a new generation. They don't even justify the development of other 6th gen models.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

You're the one with a biased opinion making baseless statements. You claimed the mustang's engine had some big top end advantage and were proven wrong. Now in turn you're trying to prove something using some inconsistent lt1 dyno graph, that is ultimately not relevant since the performance is there.

See, now you are purposely taking my statements out of context to justify your argument. What I actually said is Ford managed to generate a 20 horsepower bump in the 5.0 with minimal development work. GM is not willing to do the same thing. I never said it was a big gain or some ground breaking change.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Again if your camaro exprience is based on a slow heavy 5th gen I can see how it would be skewed but it is irrelevant to the 6th gen.

My Camaro experience is watching the brand die again because GM is not willing to do anything to keep the vehicle relevant and watching blind fanboys do mental gymnastics to justify the lack of development. You can't see the forest for the trees. You hang your hat on magazine testing, while the car dies.

[Bhobbs]

You can hate on the 5th gen all you want but it was a success and laid the foundation for the car you love so much. The 6th gen is not laying any foundation. It's leading the demise of the brand again.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Outsiders analysis:

The LT1 curves shown are all a bit different, but the dyno curves have something in common: They all fall down to 300 ft-lbs or less by 6500 rpm (redline). This doesn't count the SAE curve Robbybeefcake shows since that only goes to 6000 rpm and is SAE net crank.

I think that both parties are partially correct. The difference in the "softer" curves are that the peak isn't nearly as high. For example:

Bhobbs' curve shows a peak torque of about 415 ft-lbs at 4700 rpm, dropping to 300 @ 6500 rpm, which is a 28% drop.

RBC87 curves show: STP J-607 curve: 380 ft-lbs @ 4700 rpm down to ~290 @ 6500 rpm, which is ~24% drop in torque.
The K&N curve goes from 375 @ 5200 rpm down to 295 @ 6500 rpm, which is about 21.5% drop - flatter than the other two, esp. the Bhobbs curve.

So RBC87 is correct in the curves he shows are less severe drops, but not by a massive amount (esp. the STP J-607 curve at a ~24% drop). The main difference is Bhobbs curve example has a disproportionately high peak torque value. All drop down to 290-300 ft-lbs by 6500 rpm.

Take it with what you want.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

But...I am buying out my Hellcat and it is unchanged. Because it is THAT awesome of a car. And I plan to mod it. So your argument is moot. I love the ZL1. I would not ever consider getting rid of mine. I don't even care to mod it. And I definitely would not get rid of it for a newer one. GM hit the nail one the head with the 17 ZL1. It is an absolutely perfect car and I have never been more in love with any vehicle I have ever owned. So that should tell you something right there.

Anyway dude, always good to hear from you and I hope you are doing well. Stay safe! Happy 4th!!

All good my man, just making hypothetical conversations to pass the time. This 2 to 3 week stretch seems to be the slow time for me at work so literally just trying to generate conversation lol

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

You can hate on the 5th gen all you want but it was a success and laid the foundation for the car you love so much. The 6th gen is not laying any foundation. It's leading the demise of the brand again.

Sales has nothing to do with performance anyway.

And there are people who don't really care about the branding. I know I don't. A few people in the thread have also expressed the same. Just sounds like you are getting hung up on "oh my brand". If someone else offers a vehicle that offers better value and performance when I need another car, off I go.

Sent from toaster or something

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Sales has nothing to do with performance anyway.

And there are people who don't really care about the branding. I know I don't. A few people in the thread have also expressed the same. Just sounds like you are getting hung up on "oh my brand". If someone else offers a vehicle that offers better value and performance when I need another car, off I go.

Sent from toaster or something

I think what everyone is failing to miss is when or if Camaro goes away, development from Ford and FCA for the competing platforms will likely stagnate as they did from 2003-2009 when Camaro was previously cancelled. Competition breeds success/development/better cars out of necessity. They all thrive when all three of the main American muscle cars are doing well. Challenger was released in 2008 to take some of the space the Camaro left behind to the Mustang, but they didn't exactly give us a World beater.

Where that affects guys like you is you won't have as many advanced muscle car/ American options at relatively good prices in the future if Camaro is cancelled again. Besides the Mustang, you could possibly go M4/RS5/C63S coupe/Supra 3.0 type vehicles, but those German brands are quite a bit more money for similar performance, and the Supra is slower in a straight line and similar around a track for similar (but generally higher) money, AND it doesn't have a back seat.

I for one, hope the Camaro becomes successful and lives on. Unfortunately, the numbers so far in 2020 look dismal, and only partially due to Covid (numbers in the 1st quarter before Coronavirus were low, too).

GM needs to re-focus the Camaro and make it more desirable, otherwise, it will probably go away again.