Throttle max area size for the 95mm tb?

Brianw36 · 11-20-2018, 12:55 PM

Does anyone know the correct throttle max area size for the 95mm under Throttle area limits in HPTuners?

PRAY · 11-28-2018, 01:49 PM

I do.

travislambert · 07-01-2020, 06:31 PM

I know this thread is old, but since there is no answer I thought I'd post.

The ZR1 with the 95 mm TB uses 5054 mm2 for this value.

Does anyone know what the GM number would be if they made a 103 mm TB? If so, please post it.

I know how to calculate the actual area, but I'd be interested in how GM is coming up with their numbers. I've seen several theories, but nothing that checks out against multiple known TB sizes and corresponding values.

abbadon3718 · 07-01-2020, 11:37 PM

I’d love to know what a ported LT5 would be. I have a Tick ported that I measured at 98mm before I slapped it on.

travislambert · 07-02-2020, 03:48 AM

Good luck getting any information from a reputable tuner. Pretty much every interaction I've had with a tuner ends up like the Who's Line Is It Anyway game Questions Only. There is never a real answer. You can ask a straightforward question like what should the max area be set to for a particular throttle body and the response will be like "What are you changing that for?, What problem are you trying to solve?, Does your car idle okay?"

While I too would like to know THE answer for the 103mm, I get the sense that nobody really knows. They just hack things to suit their personal taste. Some tuners don't even bother changing this value at all.

*radz28* · 07-02-2020, 09:04 AM

Goat Rope Garage has a couple videos about this. He shows how to calculate the size and what to enter.

It seems like there are a couple conventions of thought on this, though, I honestly don't know which it is, or even if either are correct. I've read some say it isn't too important to enter the number as long as you tune correctly for it in the VVE and MAF tables (no raping the PE). And the other is to enter the commonly stated figures, like the 5054. I've seen even with cars with the same TB, the scaler value is still different (I think it was actually Z06 and ZL1, for example). I know that it goes deeper than what I got into, but I'm neither anything close to an expert, nor is anyone going to read all that, even if I did know and posted it, HAHAHA.

It seems 5054 is an accepted "good" value for an LT5 TB, so it might be a safe place to start and see how the car likes it.

JMVHO...

travislambert · 07-02-2020, 10:20 AM

I've watched the Goat Rope Garage videos, but those just fall into the incorrect theory category for me. Given that you can't follow his method for a stock configuration and come up with the stock value pretty much proves there's something missing to his method.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of tables not mapped in HP Tuners. I bet there are one or more tables that capture the flow characteristics of the throttle body that aren't exposed. I assume that's why you see so many different methods from different tuners, because at the end of the day, there's not a way via HP Tuners to configure it 100% correct. We just have to hack values that are mapped to try to achieve an acceptable end result.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I think there is now an answer for the original 95 mm TB question. I'm very interested in feedback on what value people are using for the 103 mm TBs.

*radz28* · 07-02-2020, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travislambert

I've watched the Goat Rope Garage videos, but those just fall into the incorrect theory category for me. Given that you can't follow his method for a stock configuration and come up with the stock value pretty much proves there's something missing to his method.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of tables not mapped in HP Tuners. I bet there are one or more tables that capture the flow characteristics of the throttle body that aren't exposed. I assume that's why you see so many different methods from different tuners, because at the end of the day, there's not a way via HP Tuners to configure it 100% correct. We just have to hack values that are mapped to try to achieve an acceptable end result.

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I think there is now an answer for the original 95 mm TB question. I'm very interested in feedback on what value people are using for the 103 mm TBs.

Yeah - I think that's why there a what seem to be at least a couple theories and ways to tune these sorts of things. Some guys don't even change the scalers.

Stupid question, but have you looked a the Tune Repository over at HPTuners? I'm sure you have, but hate not to mention it in the unlikely case that you haven't.

I feel like I've seen it somewhere, but I'm afraid the answer will be the same as the answer to the value to use for the LT5 TB... I'll see if I can find something; it'll probably be something you've already seen though...

travislambert · 07-02-2020, 10:39 AM

This thread shows theories for 7250, 5832, and 6444.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-body-control

This thread shows 6,243.50.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...le-Body-scalar

That's most of what I've seen I think.

*radz28* · 07-02-2020, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travislambert

This thread shows theories for 7250, 5832, and 6444.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-body-control

This thread shows 6,243.50.
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...le-Body-scalar

That's most of what I've seen I think.

I thought I had a worksheet to help convert to the appropriate value. If I can find it, I'll post it here, because it could help for a 95mm, too, I imagine.

*radz28* · 07-02-2020, 12:53 PM

Apparently I can't post that spreadsheet...

Ryfly05 · 02-11-2023, 12:52 AM

I know it's an old thread (again) and maybe this has been brought up elsewhere since the last post, but since I'm going to be installing an MSD manifold and NW103 tb I've been interested in this subject. From my research so far, it seems the general consensus is that the max area table doesn't affect the overall drivability/throttle response too much unless you set it too high.

I always like the tables to be as close as possible to "correct" even if they really don't affect much. My "theory" for max area for 103 tb is to just use whatever formula GM uses (which seems to be a complete mystery still) by comparing the difference between our stock 87mm and the value for the 95mm. I'm sure someone's thought of this before, I just haven't seen it.

Difference between 95 and 87 tb = 8mm
Difference between 103 and 95 tb = 8mm

Therefore if we double the difference between the stock 87 and 95, we should get a value "close" to what GM would use for a 103. I realize that's not how area works, but GM's numbers don't seem to follow the normal area formulas anyways. It also shouldn't give us a number that's too high to start causing issues.

87 max area = 4704
95 max area = 5054

8mm = 350

87 to 103 = 16mm = 700
4704 + 700 = 5404

That's my theory anyways. I'll find out by next week hopefully how well it works.

JANNETTYRACING · 02-14-2023, 03:15 PM

Nick Williams states that all his new Throttle bodies require you leave the area Scaler stock.

It has something to do with the new Motors and how they are Mapped.

VS the older ones where we would use 7147 for a 102.

I have played with this quite extensively and never really seen more than a very subtle difference in throttle response.

Roughly assembling some of the information, in my little brain, I am of the opinion that value is in direct relation to how the Throttle Body Motor is Mapped and not the Physical Area of the Throttle body.

I look at thousands of calibrations and have never been able to make heads or tails out of the Area Scaler values.

I see many different vehicles with the same TB, cars and trucks alike, Trucks use a very low number in the 3K range.

In for more info if anybody has any.

Ted.

Ryfly05 · 03-05-2023, 11:16 AM

So I ended up leaving the scaler at the stock value with my NW103. I tried my theoretical value of 5404 for a while, and it worked fine too although I did feel like I noticed some very minor differences.

The main reason for me leaving the tb scaler stock was that following the scans with hp tuners, the throttle blade opening more closely matches the pedal position.

With my experimental value of 5404, the throttle blade would slightly "outrun" the pedal position meaning it would open the throttle slightly more than I was commanding at certain points. It was very minor and not dangerous at all. In actual driving, without looking at the scans, it wasn't even noticeable.

The other very minor difference was that it seemed like the auto rev match was a little "lazier" with my value of 5404. Like the revs wouldn't jump up quite as fast as with the stock value. Again very minor, hardly noticeable, and still worked fine.

After installing the NW103, hp tuners now reads full throttle as 83.9% where with the stock throttle body it read 99.6%. I was hoping playing with the scaler would change those values, but it didn't make a difference.

So yeah, stock tb max area seems to be the best overall despite very minor differences.

11-20-2018, 12:55 PM	#1
Brianw36 SNSTRSS Drives: 2016 Camaro 2SS A8 Join Date: May 2016 Location: North Florida Posts: 583 View My Garage	Throttle max area size for the 95mm tb? Does anyone know the correct throttle max area size for the 95mm under Throttle area limits in HPTuners? __________________ 2016 Black Camaro 2SS A8 NP

07-01-2020, 06:31 PM	#3
travislambert Drives: '17 ZL1 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Fairmont, WV Posts: 1,558	I know this thread is old, but since there is no answer I thought I'd post. The ZR1 with the 95 mm TB uses 5054 mm2 for this value. Does anyone know what the GM number would be if they made a 103 mm TB? If so, please post it. I know how to calculate the actual area, but I'd be interested in how GM is coming up with their numbers. I've seen several theories, but nothing that checks out against multiple known TB sizes and corresponding values. __________________ 2023 Camaro SS 1LE A10 2023 Camaro ZL1 1LE M6 2017 Camaro ZL1 M6 2016 Camaro SS M6 w/LT4 (Sold)

07-02-2020, 03:48 AM	#5
travislambert Drives: '17 ZL1 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Fairmont, WV Posts: 1,558	Good luck getting any information from a reputable tuner. Pretty much every interaction I've had with a tuner ends up like the Who's Line Is It Anyway game Questions Only. There is never a real answer. You can ask a straightforward question like what should the max area be set to for a particular throttle body and the response will be like "What are you changing that for?, What problem are you trying to solve?, Does your car idle okay?" While I too would like to know THE answer for the 103mm, I get the sense that nobody really knows. They just hack things to suit their personal taste. Some tuners don't even bother changing this value at all. __________________ 2023 Camaro SS 1LE A10 2023 Camaro ZL1 1LE M6 2017 Camaro ZL1 M6 2016 Camaro SS M6 w/LT4 (Sold)

07-02-2020, 09:04 AM	#6
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,188 View My Garage	Goat Rope Garage has a couple videos about this. He shows how to calculate the size and what to enter. It seems like there are a couple conventions of thought on this, though, I honestly don't know which it is, or even if either are correct. I've read some say it isn't too important to enter the number as long as you tune correctly for it in the VVE and MAF tables (no raping the PE). And the other is to enter the commonly stated figures, like the 5054. I've seen even with cars with the same TB, the scaler value is still different (I think it was actually Z06 and ZL1, for example). I know that it goes deeper than what I got into, but I'm neither anything close to an expert, nor is anyone going to read all that, even if I did know and posted it, HAHAHA. It seems 5054 is an accepted "good" value for an LT5 TB, so it might be a safe place to start and see how the car likes it. JMVHO... __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

07-02-2020, 10:20 AM	#7
travislambert Drives: '17 ZL1 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Fairmont, WV Posts: 1,558	I've watched the Goat Rope Garage videos, but those just fall into the incorrect theory category for me. Given that you can't follow his method for a stock configuration and come up with the stock value pretty much proves there's something missing to his method. Unfortunately, there are a lot of tables not mapped in HP Tuners. I bet there are one or more tables that capture the flow characteristics of the throttle body that aren't exposed. I assume that's why you see so many different methods from different tuners, because at the end of the day, there's not a way via HP Tuners to configure it 100% correct. We just have to hack values that are mapped to try to achieve an acceptable end result. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but I think there is now an answer for the original 95 mm TB question. I'm very interested in feedback on what value people are using for the 103 mm TBs. __________________ 2023 Camaro SS 1LE A10 2023 Camaro ZL1 1LE M6 2017 Camaro ZL1 M6 2016 Camaro SS M6 w/LT4 (Sold)

11-28-2018, 01:49 PM	#2
PRAY Drives: 2016 2SS Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Sanford NC Posts: 2,766	I do.

07-01-2020, 11:37 PM	#4
abbadon3718 Drives: 2017 2SS Join Date: Jun 2019 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 102	I’d love to know what a ported LT5 would be. I have a Tick ported that I measured at 98mm before I slapped it on.

07-02-2020, 10:39 AM	#9
travislambert Drives: '17 ZL1 Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Fairmont, WV Posts: 1,558	This thread shows theories for 7250, 5832, and 6444. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-body-control This thread shows 6,243.50. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...le-Body-scalar That's most of what I've seen I think. __________________ 2023 Camaro SS 1LE A10 2023 Camaro ZL1 1LE M6 2017 Camaro ZL1 M6 2016 Camaro SS M6 w/LT4 (Sold)

07-02-2020, 12:53 PM	#11
radz28 Petro-sexual Drives: Ultra-Grin Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Crazy Coast Posts: 15,188 View My Garage	Apparently I can't post that spreadsheet... __________________ '20 ZL1 Black "Fury" A10, PDR, Exposed CF Extractor Magnuson Magnum DI TVS2650R // RFBG // Soler 103 // TooHighPSI Port Injection // THPSI Billet Lid // FF // Katech Drop-In // PLM Heat Exchanger // ZLE Cradle bushings // BMR Chassis-Suspension Stuff // aFe Bars // Diode Dynamics LEDs // ACS Composites Guards // CF Dash // Aeroforce // tint // other stuffs

02-11-2023, 12:52 AM	#12
Ryfly05 Drives: 22 2SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2022 Location: WA Posts: 47	I know it's an old thread (again) and maybe this has been brought up elsewhere since the last post, but since I'm going to be installing an MSD manifold and NW103 tb I've been interested in this subject. From my research so far, it seems the general consensus is that the max area table doesn't affect the overall drivability/throttle response too much unless you set it too high. I always like the tables to be as close as possible to "correct" even if they really don't affect much. My "theory" for max area for 103 tb is to just use whatever formula GM uses (which seems to be a complete mystery still) by comparing the difference between our stock 87mm and the value for the 95mm. I'm sure someone's thought of this before, I just haven't seen it. Difference between 95 and 87 tb = 8mm Difference between 103 and 95 tb = 8mm Therefore if we double the difference between the stock 87 and 95, we should get a value "close" to what GM would use for a 103. I realize that's not how area works, but GM's numbers don't seem to follow the normal area formulas anyways. It also shouldn't give us a number that's too high to start causing issues. 87 max area = 4704 95 max area = 5054 8mm = 350 87 to 103 = 16mm = 700 4704 + 700 = 5404 That's my theory anyways. I'll find out by next week hopefully how well it works.

02-14-2023, 03:15 PM	#13
JANNETTYRACING Drives: BLUE CAMARO ZL1 1LE M6 Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: ON THE DYNO WATERBURY CT. Posts: 15,223	Nick Williams states that all his new Throttle bodies require you leave the area Scaler stock. It has something to do with the new Motors and how they are Mapped. VS the older ones where we would use 7147 for a 102. I have played with this quite extensively and never really seen more than a very subtle difference in throttle response. Roughly assembling some of the information, in my little brain, I am of the opinion that value is in direct relation to how the Throttle Body Motor is Mapped and not the Physical Area of the Throttle body. I look at thousands of calibrations and have never been able to make heads or tails out of the Area Scaler values. I see many different vehicles with the same TB, cars and trucks alike, Trucks use a very low number in the 3K range. In for more info if anybody has any. Ted. __________________ www.jannettyracing.com Celebrating 37 years Performance parts, Installation, Fabrication, Dyno tuning, Remote custom tuning, and alignments. 203-753-7223 Waterbury CT. 06705 email tedj@jannettyracing.com

03-05-2023, 11:16 AM	#14
Ryfly05 Drives: 22 2SS 1LE Join Date: Mar 2022 Location: WA Posts: 47	So I ended up leaving the scaler at the stock value with my NW103. I tried my theoretical value of 5404 for a while, and it worked fine too although I did feel like I noticed some very minor differences. The main reason for me leaving the tb scaler stock was that following the scans with hp tuners, the throttle blade opening more closely matches the pedal position. With my experimental value of 5404, the throttle blade would slightly "outrun" the pedal position meaning it would open the throttle slightly more than I was commanding at certain points. It was very minor and not dangerous at all. In actual driving, without looking at the scans, it wasn't even noticeable. The other very minor difference was that it seemed like the auto rev match was a little "lazier" with my value of 5404. Like the revs wouldn't jump up quite as fast as with the stock value. Again very minor, hardly noticeable, and still worked fine. After installing the NW103, hp tuners now reads full throttle as 83.9% where with the stock throttle body it read 99.6%. I was hoping playing with the scaler would change those values, but it didn't make a difference. So yeah, stock tb max area seems to be the best overall despite very minor differences.

User Name		Remember Me?
Password