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Old 12-26-2013, 02:35 AM   #197
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That would be very interesting….
They used to run tours through the Lansing plants when I was a kid. Regret I never went on one. When you grow up around stuff, it seems kind of mundane and ordinary. You don't always realize how special it might be; until you go out in the world and look back.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:43 AM   #198
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Awesome...
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:37 AM   #199
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Face it, the only reason Canada is a country is the USA allows it to be. No better neighbor does Canada have. California has more people than all of Canada. If USA wanted to annex Canada, it could have, but colonies cost too much these days. If USA didn't protect Canada from USSR/Russia, it would be a Russian province. .
Really???? Does the war of 1812 ring any bells?? Remember when the US tried annex us and we went South and burned down the Whitehouse before we went back home for some beers?

Anyway, where the Camaro is made is much less to do with location than it is a function of wages, IMO. Pay a worker a living wage they he/she can live on and feed their family and prosper and they will show up, have pride in their work and build a quality car.

Now take that same set up and pay the employee half so they are scraping by and how long until that worker is pissed and starts looking for a better paying job. Now their eye is off the game and things go for crap. Can the US build a quality car? No doubt in my mind. Can they do it paying substandard wages and and not paying those employees what is considered a living wage? Very unlikely.
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Old 12-26-2013, 09:19 AM   #200
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Really???? Does the war of 1812 ring any bells?? Remember when the US tried annex us and we went South and burned down the Whitehouse before we went back home for some beers?

Anyway, where the Camaro is made is much less to do with location than it is a function of wages, IMO. Pay a worker a living wage they he/she can live on and feed their family and prosper and they will show up, have pride in their work and build a quality car.

Now take that same set up and pay the employee half so they are scraping by and how long until that worker is pissed and starts looking for a better paying job. Now their eye is off the game and things go for crap. Can the US build a quality car? No doubt in my mind. Can they do it paying substandard wages and and not paying those employees what is considered a living wage? Very unlikely.
Are you seriously insinuating that the folks who build Cadillacs (AKA the cars that are on par with or better than the Germans right now) aren't getting paid enough and are producing substandard cars?

Pfft.
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Old 12-26-2013, 10:58 AM   #201
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The fact of the matter is, if your car is made in USA, Canada, and Mexico, it is a North American car.

North America is in great shape for the next 100yrs if not longer.

Face it, the only reason Canada is a country is the USA allows it to be. No better neighbor does Canada have. California has more people than all of Canada. If USA wanted to annex Canada, it could have, but colonies cost too much these days. If USA didn't protect Canada from USSR/Russia, it would be a Russian province.

Ditto for Mexico, and what a train wreck that dump is. Place could be bulldozed over and do a makeover, I know, I lived there for a while. Country should be in better shape than USA, besides all-year growing season, it has oil, gold, silver, seafood, the works. Nope, no good. The country since the Conquistordes has been ruled by about 1% of the population, sound familiar?

Finally, I am a history buff, may get my doctorate in it, who knows, but look at all the places England colonized, then check which ones the Spanish, French, and Germans did. See which ones are doing good today and which aren't. England: USA, Canada, Australia, N. Zealand, all doing fine. Spain: Everything south of Texas (and could you imagine that still Mexican, ha, although they are trying, but their toilets still flush with toilet paper), Spanish Morocco... As for France: Chad, Viet Nam, Laos, need I go on about that...........and who cares about the Germans, they are arrogant.
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Old 12-26-2013, 12:54 PM   #202
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Are you seriously insinuating that the folks who build Cadillacs (AKA the cars that are on par with or better than the Germans right now) aren't getting paid enough and are producing substandard cars?

Pfft.
Nope didn't say that, or I am really misunderstanding the deal as it was laid out. Are they paying the UAW folks building the Caddys $15/hr??because that's what the statement read. In fact what I said is I have no doubt that they can build a quality piece but it appears like GM is cutting a deal to limit the wages on the new Camaro assembly line.

Thought I was clear it has nothing to do with where but a lot to do with paying a living wage. Hey, if I'm wrong and $15/hr is a good wage for those parts then great but I highly doubt it. But then again I live in Vancouver one go the most expensive places in the world so it might be I just not understanding.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:01 PM   #203
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Whatever you are on , it's not working for you
You may or may not still have time to recover from it
But if you never try , you will never know , and that's a darn shame
^^^^Hahahahaha
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:20 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver View Post
Nope didn't say that, or I am really misunderstanding the deal as it was laid out. Are they paying the UAW folks building the Caddys $15/hr??because that's what the statement read. In fact what I said is I have no doubt that they can build a quality piece but it appears like GM is cutting a deal to limit the wages on the new Camaro assembly line.

Thought I was clear it has nothing to do with where but a lot to do with paying a living wage. Hey, if I'm wrong and $15/hr is a good wage for those parts then great but I highly doubt it. But then again I live in Vancouver one go the most expensive places in the world so it might be I just not understanding.
Or the next-gen Camaro is going on Alpha and it just makes sense to consolidate all Alpha production into one plant.
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Old 12-26-2013, 01:57 PM   #205
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Originally Posted by Todd in Vancouver View Post
Nope didn't say that, or I am really misunderstanding the deal as it was laid out. Are they paying the UAW folks building the Caddys $15/hr??because that's what the statement read. In fact what I said is I have no doubt that they can build a quality piece but it appears like GM is cutting a deal to limit the wages on the new Camaro assembly line.

Thought I was clear it has nothing to do with where but a lot to do with paying a living wage. Hey, if I'm wrong and $15/hr is a good wage for those parts then great but I highly doubt it. But then again I live in Vancouver one go the most expensive places in the world so it might be I just not understanding.
Whether the guys on the line get paid 15/hr or 25/hr the final product is still going to come out pretty much the same (sure they might pay a bit more attention for defects or what not). I'm not saying the guys on the line don't affect quality. But its the actual designers and engineers that that are laying out the ground work for the engine, chasis, and other components that are going to have a bigger impact on quality in my opinion, and I'm guessing those people are getting paid just fine.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:08 PM   #206
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FH65, I can totally indeed understand that it's a business decision but the question in the thread seems to be one of what we can expect from a move of the Camaro to a different plant. Everyone loves the current production, for the most part, and the move back South of the car does raise some concerns. There is absolutely no doubt the car can be great, but for that matter it can be great built anywhere given the right circumstances.

My question to you, as I'm currently reading your other thread and you are the GM guy, is are they cutting a different deal for the Camaro facility than they are the Caddy one? Or, are they just going to blend it into the same line and production personnel? Seeing as they have already stated that the Camaro production will have a $15-$19/hr wage expectation I don't understand how they can do it.
We've all seen the news stories on how hard Detroit has been hit and the jobs are very much needed. But is it realistic to expect a pride in workmanship and stability at these lower wages? Or if I'm out to lunch on this and that's a good going wage for the area then by all means let me know. Maybe someone from the area can chime in because I just don't see how it can have long term viability.
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Old 12-26-2013, 02:18 PM   #207
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Honestly I don't believe it has anything to do with demographics or wage costs. Traditionally GM has always tried to build vehicles on the same platform in the same assembly plant. It just makes sense. For the longest time Oshawa has been an odd assortment of completely random cars, Zeta Camaros, EpII SWB Regals, Premium Epsilon Impala/XTS, Theta-II Equinox final assembly, hell there's still W-body Impala Limited production.

And again, LGR is the same plant that churns out ATS and CTS. Arguably two of the best-executed GM vehicles in decades (and yes, much better than Camaro). The level of quality there isn't an issue.

Canada isn't the end-all solution for Camaro production.
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Old 12-26-2013, 03:00 PM   #208
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Honestly I don't believe it has anything to do with demographics or wage costs. Traditionally GM has always tried to build vehicles on the same platform in the same assembly plant. It just makes sense. For the longest time Oshawa has been an odd assortment of completely random cars, Zeta Camaros, EpII SWB Regals, Premium Epsilon Impala/XTS, Theta-II Equinox final assembly, hell there's still W-body Impala Limited production.

And again, LGR is the same plant that churns out ATS and CTS. Arguably two of the best-executed GM vehicles in decades (and yes, much better than Camaro). The level of quality there isn't an issue.

Canada isn't the end-all solution for Camaro production.
FH65, I certainly hope you are right because it would be good for all of us. But, I never said that Canada was an end-all solution and great cars are produced all over the world so location has little to do with it other than production and supply synergies.

After a quick Google it appears that what I was asking is already being discussed and as I thought it does not make for happy people.

Quote from GM, as discussed on pg7;
"Second-tier workers hired in Lansing, Mich., to build the next generation of the Cama-ro will start at US$15.78 per hour and top out at US$19.28 in four years, compared to the $34.33 autoworkers on the line make in Oshawa, Faria noted. The situation is the same in Spring Hill, Tenn., where overflow of the Chevrolet Equinox is being built compared to the Oshawa and CAMI plants in Canada."


As discussed by the UAW;

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...t/#more-682730

This was the most recent I could find but IF this article is true than the wage discrepancy is already an issue with the workers. We all know what happens next if GM and the UAW can't come to an agreement.
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Old 11-09-2014, 11:41 AM   #209
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:54 PM   #210
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