[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

It's not as though so many haven't been calling for a halt to forced EVs. Those type problems aren't getting fixed. It's just there's no leadership, with regard for liberty & real influence.

Can you tell me who is being forced to buy EVs in the US in 2023? As it turns out, the #1 and #10 best selling vehicles in the US are Teslas. I’d love to know who is forcing people to buy them. Or maybe those people just prefer them. Hard to tell.

[0stones0]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Can you tell me who is being forced to buy EVs in the US in 2023? As it turns out, the #1 and #10 best selling vehicles in the US are Teslas. I’d love to know who is forcing people to buy them. Or maybe those people just prefer them. Hard to tell.

Or maybe those people can afford them where, most of us, cannot.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Can you tell me who is being forced to buy EVs in the US in 2023? As it turns out, the #1 and #10 best selling vehicles in the US are Teslas. I’d love to know who is forcing people to buy them. Or maybe those people just prefer them. Hard to tell.

Not forced, but incentivized to the tune of $7500.

If EV's are so popular why does the govt have to pay people to buy them?

(Full disclosure - I have a PHEV Volvo which I love... and I got no tax rebate)

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

Not forced, but incentivized to the tune of $7500.

If EV's are so popular why does the govt have to pay people to buy them?

(Full disclosure - I have a PHEV Volvo which I love... and I got no tax rebate)

Weren't we having this same debate back when hybrids first came out and it was the one getting incentives?

Now we like hybrids and are complaining about EV's.....

[90503]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

Weren't we having this same debate back when hybrids first came out and it was the one getting incentives?

Now we like hybrids and are complaining about EV's.....

Except for that when the hybrids came out, there was no policy of ending fossil fuels or goal by the govt or automakers of unnecessarily ending ICE in the near future as there is now with EVs.

Saying that you are not being forced to by an EV, is a half-truth at best. Policies intentionally making ICE transportation more costly and prohibitive to own, not to mention ending ICE production, will at some point indeed force the purchase of EVs.

The current administration just recently upped the mileage requirements for ICE as they were unhappy about the slow progress of EV adoption. How is that not a forceful act?

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

If EV's are so popular why does the govt have to pay people to buy them?

Do you have a problem with the US government giving oil companies incentives and subsidies anywhere from $10-50 billion a year even after we have been purchasing gasoline cars for over 100 years now?

Some subsidies, like the deduction of Intangible Drilling Costs, were originally put in place in 1916 and still used today even though the oil companies are hugely profitable


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[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 90503

Except for that when the hybrids came out, there was no policy of ending fossil fuels or goal by the govt or automakers of unnecessarily ending ICE in the near future as there is now with EVs.

Saying that you are not being forced to by an EV, is a half-truth at best. Policies intentionally making ICE transportation more costly and prohibitive to own, not to mention ending ICE production, will at some point indeed force the purchase of EVs.

The current administration just recently upped the mileage requirements for ICE as they were unhappy about the slow progress of EV adoption. How is that not a forceful act?

None of this affects purchase decisions people make today. People are not buying 2023 MY vehicles factoring in what may or may not happen in 2035. But people are buying enough EVs in 2023 that two of them are in the top 10 list of vehicles purchased. Some (not all) are getting incentives, but incentives are different than being “forced” to buy. Carrot or stick. Incentive is the carrot. Forcing is the stick. I see no sticks motivating buyers to purchase EV in 2023.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Windycity

Do you have a problem with the US government giving oil companies incentives and subsidies anywhere from $10-50 billion a year even after we have been purchasing gasoline cars for over 100 years now?

Some subsidies, like the deduction of Intangible Drilling Costs, were originally put in place in 1916 and still used today even though the oil companies are hugely profitable


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I have no opinion on the Intangible Drilling Costs deduction subsidy but I'm pretty sure Tesla makes a shit ton of money selling carbon credits. Without carbon credits (an artificial thing created by the government) Tesla probably wouldn't have survived.

I'd call that a government subsidy. Indirect, but subsidy nonetheless.

[genxer]

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

According to what I've seen, the areas with the resources for the minerals used mostly in today's batteries are either already owned by China or China is acquiring them.

So how does that make everyone feel? China will be the biggest winner by far when we invest in electric vehicles. Sure gives me a warm fuzzy.

We've got to find other means to get what we need instead of relying on China.

-This is a big part of the context of a forced EV market.
-My already earned and taxed dollars go less and less far.
-Tax credits went, ~and keeps, going to a billionaire immigrant that doesn't help the home and friend shoring idea, only sells OTA traps.
-So, I don't care if the whole things goes down in flames, with people taking a bath on their IRAs and being underwater from their virtue-signal-it's-the-future consumption.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by genxer

-This is a big part of the context of a forced EV market.
-My already earned and taxed dollars go less and less far.
-Tax credits went, ~and keeps, going to a billionaire immigrant that doesn't help the home and friend shoring idea, only sells OTA traps.
-So, I don't care if the whole things goes down in flames, with people taking a bath on their IRAs and being underwater from their virtue-signal-it's-the-future consumption.

The IRA tax credits go to the vehicle purchaser, not the vehicle manufacturer. The benefit to the vehicle manufacturer is that it makes the overall purchase price for vehicles qualifying for the incentive lower for people in qualifying income brackets so maybe they can sell more of them. So if I wanted to buy a $47,500 Tesla Model Y and my household income is under $300k, I can get a $7,500 tax credit, making my overall price $40,000. But none of the tax incentive money goes back to the manufacturer.

[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

None of this affects purchase decisions people make today. People are not buying 2023 MY vehicles factoring in what may or may not happen in 2035. But people are buying enough EVs in 2023 that two of them are in the top 10 list of vehicles purchased. Some (not all) are getting incentives, but incentives are different than being “forced” to buy. Carrot or stick. Incentive is the carrot. Forcing is the stick. I see no sticks motivating buyers to purchase EV in 2023.

That is indisputable.

But what is also indisputable is that many people are being paid to buy one so those sales numbers are artificially inflated. Where would those same cars be without incentives? We don't know. Therefore it is somewhat disingenuous to use those rankings as proof of how popular EV's are.

[Windycity]

Originally Posted by Iron Lung Jimmy

I have no opinion on the Intangible Drilling Costs deduction subsidy but I'm pretty sure Tesla makes a shit ton of money selling carbon credits. Without carbon credits (an artificial thing created by the government) Tesla probably wouldn't have survived.

I'd call that a government subsidy. Indirect, but subsidy nonetheless.

Almost every industry benefits substantially from government “help”

To simply target EV subsidies as a talking point you need to also include the massive subsidies that the fossil fuel industry also gets

There really is no industry that is truly “free market” that doesn’t involve any sort of government incentives, tax breaks/credits or subsidies


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[Windycity]

Originally Posted by 0stones0

Or maybe those people can afford them where, most of us, cannot.

And those people could easily afford a different gas powered luxury vehicle but choose an electric Tesla instead


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[Iron Lung Jimmy]

Originally Posted by Windycity

Almost every industry benefits substantially from government “help”

To simply target EV subsidies as a talking point you need to also include the massive subsidies that the fossil fuel industry also gets

There really is no industry that is truly “free market” that doesn’t involve any sort of government incentives, tax breaks/credits or subsidies


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There is a huge difference between tax breaks, etc for corporations and direct subsidies to consumers. Huge difference.

I'm fine with whatever tax breaks corporations can get. I don't mind the drilling thing tax break and I don't particularly mind carbon credits. But the govt paying people to buy a favored product is a step too far regardless of what that product is.