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Old 07-19-2018, 09:03 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S2K+1LE View Post
You need to understand that you are "completely disagree" with what I'm saying by turning it into a completely different discussion.

At no point did I make a YoY comparison, as you can tell ALL the brands sales are down and all CAR sales in general. Seen midsize sedan sales lately?

What I said, which you can disagree with all you'd like but you'd be disagreeing with facts... Ford can make a product that people line up to pay over MSRP for while GM makes a technically better product and has to discount off of MSRP. TF does that have to do with YoY comparisons? Nada. Point stands.
I test drove a Shelby GT350 when I was driving my prior 5th gen Camaro ZL1. Besides that the Shelby GT350 had a great sounding exhaust and of the high 8000 rpm addictive driving experience, I didn't felt like the car looked extraordinary to me, it looked like a regular Mustang GT, and my ZL1 felt way faster. Instead I bought a Corvette Stingray Z51, a much better car choice for the money. No looking back, no regrets. I told the salesmen at the Ford dealership, that they where crazy for asking a 10K markup over MSRP for that car. Ford created a false illusion with those cars with exploding engines. That is B.S.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:04 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apexit53 View Post
Im just going to say this...

Its taken ford three different packages to beat the camaro, and it hasnt.

The PP1, no chance

The PP2, issues labeled here

GT350, comes close but performance per dollar the 1LE wins.
Mic drop, end of discussion.
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:16 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by apexit53 View Post
Im just going to say this...

Its taken ford three different packages to beat the camaro, and it hasnt.

The PP1, no chance

The PP2, issues labeled here

GT350, comes close but performance per dollar the 1LE wins.
I completely agree
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Old 07-19-2018, 09:49 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
Good grief. None of this makes any sense. Ford took some suspension components from the GT350, which is a dedicated track car, added track specific tires that are not good on the street at all, then doesn't put in any coolers for the track, and when the car overheats on the track, the reviewers say, well it's more of a street car anyway. I'm calling BS!!!!

The PP2 was promoted as a skunk works project to go up against the 1LE (a track package car).

The real story here is that the Ford nut jobs have bullied the crap out of anyone who says anything negative about the car. MotorTrend got HAMMERED by the Ford faithful for saying such good things about the 6th Gen Camaro. They called them Chevy Trend. It has been soooo bad that the next MotorTrend H2H video had the guys joking about did they get their check from Chevy yet. AND, in the follow-up to that video when they tested the PP1 to the 1LE, MotorTrend went WAY out of their way to make the Mustang look good, like testing things with "Cowboy Science". WTF is cowboy science you ask? It's just another way of saying "we better find something, ANYTHING, that the Mustang is better at than the Camaro, so we don't get so hammered by the Mustang fans like last time." Let's tell the viewers the Mustang does burnouts better. Really? Did they have trouble getting the SS to do a burnout or something? Or, the Mustang exhaust sounds way better. Really, they both sound great to me. You may prefer one over the other, but WAY better? Come on. Or, let's take it out to a dry lake bed so we can have enough room for the Mustang to eventually go faster... At the end of the first half of the video, they said, well if these were the only tests the Mustang would win. WHEN would those be the only tests in any comprehensive review of the performance of the cars?? What about 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad, figure-8, track times? It's totally clear they were cherry picking some data points that they felt they could claim as a victory for the Mustang just to get the crazy nut jobs off their backs.

Anyone who has been watching these H2H's for a while could see through this crap. They were just trying not to hurt the Mustang fan's feelings.

Now R&T and Ford are trying to claim that the PP2 wasn't meant for going to the track, even though it comes with tires that are terrible on the street but great on the track, just to get a lap time that is closer to the 1LE (a track package car).

If the PP2 is a a street package, why the track tires? If the PP2 is a street package, why does it even exist at all? Would't it be better to make the base car a softer ride, and the PP1 a bit stiffer for folks who want to canyon carve? Why have a PP2 at all? Also, why is the PP2 manual only? What, you can't canyon carve in with an auto transmission? Are automatic cars terrible on the street or something?

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, IT'S A FREAKING DUCK!

As I said first. NONE of this narrative makes sense.

The narrative that DOES makes sense is, the PP2 was meant to be the answer to the 1LE, a track package car that keeps embarrassing the Mustang on the track, but Ford didn't want the engineers spending too much money on R&D, so they used existing parts from the GT350 and track specific tires to get a certain lap time. The engineers didn't have money to spend developing coolers necessary for the track, or other fun track toys like the Performance Data Recorder, or different levels of performance traction management, let alone a torque vectoring eDiff.

I know what a duck is, and the PP2 was developed to get a track time in the same ballpark as the 1LE. And it probably will get a great track time, but it seems it can only do that for a lap or two, which is useless. And now, magazines are bending over backwards to misrepresent the intent of the package so they don't hurt all the bullies feelings...

And before anyone tries to reply with the whole "well it was designed for the street, if you want to track it, you should modify it to put the coolers on", let me just say, then why did they choose these tires for a street package? What, a guy who can put a bunch of coolers in the car can't change the tires to a track tire too? Nonsense.
Completely agree
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Old 07-19-2018, 02:42 PM   #103
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With a professional driver, the GT350 is the faster car from what I've seen. The difference in money being what it is, most of us would never be able to justify the difference due to the lack of driving talent needed to realize it. IMHO. Not to mention the engine issues and overheating issues those seem to have. You saved me from even looking at the PP2, I love the looks but do track my car about twice a year (HPDE). I show mine no mercy and had no issues at Roebling Road, and it's JUST a 1SS non-1LE.
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Old 07-21-2018, 10:50 PM   #104
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The New Mustangs are much nicer overall but i hate ford and their cost cutting measures!
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:20 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by TrackClub View Post
Bt more importantly, both manufacturers seem to be sandbagging the ratings, as the GT dynoed closer to 480 at a crank and Camaro LT1 usually dynoes even higher. Thats as compared to a Vette LT1 scoring 460 at a crank on a same dyno.

AThere is no question in my mind GM could have safely changed the offical power numbers to 480/480 and give cars and coffee bragging rights back to bow tie folks.
But that would have taken wind out of reworked LT1 sails coming with even more power, likely in 2020.

Having said that this is still fake news just like soon to be introduced C8.
I believe the LT1 has been independently SAE verified. Like the LS3, meaning 3 engines pulled off the line and put on a dyno put out the same HP as rated (within measuring tolerance). Don't know about the Ford, but would assume the same. The days of fudging the ratings is over IMO.
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:24 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
I think it is true that most people who buy a Mustang GT or Camaro SS will never take them on the track. GM probably overkilled by equipping every V8 Camaro to be track capable. Ford definitely underwhelms by not even making the hardware necessary to track a Mustang GT available in an order package.

I think Chevy was smart to build every SS track capable. Ford has for 40 years played you gotta pay to play, all in the 2018 Mustang thread. Chevy says we like racers, welcome Joe 6 pack. A fully warrantied and track capable car for everyone was brilliant. That is why I luv Chevy...
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:26 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by TrackClub View Post
Nope. But i did own 2 GTs and tracked one of them extensively. Bragging rights are fine, but only if a car is capable of meeting them. I bought my 1le because i can brag that it beat a mighty z28 around Laguna at half the price and that i have passed evey GT4 ive ever met on a track thus far

Bragging in the media about aero tuning by a pro driver for 140mph corners while attaching anti track use disclaimers at the same time does indeed disappoint me as it makes such effort completely irrelevant. Thats kinda like marketing new and improved condoms but warning the public they cant use them for real sex.

Overall, the whole effort was very clever for marketing purposes, but pointless for consumers, including all the hoopla about skunk works project by Ford enthusiast engineers and such.
Unless Ford condones taking corners at such speeds on public roads, which i doubt they do.

It is also worth mentioning that of all pony cars it is the Mustang which has had the biggest decrease in sales over the last 3 or so years. 33% to 30% for Camaro (if i recall details correctly) vs modest growth for Challenger. Ford needs to let the dogs out vs creating artificial barriers for enthusiasts. Just imo.

Very astute..
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Old 07-21-2018, 11:31 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
There is no Auto option for the PP2 so transmission cooling is likely unnecessary.
My M6 SS has two transcoolers. One in the radiator and one that sits horizontally behind the nose, surprised me....
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:25 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by oldman View Post
My M6 SS has two transcoolers. One in the radiator and one that sits horizontally behind the nose, surprised me....
Yeah, and if anyone has any real experience with the MT82, they know that trans runs real hot.
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Old 07-31-2018, 09:50 AM   #110
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https://youtu.be/4Ypzk8DaGlg
The closing comment is interesting.
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Old 08-01-2018, 12:04 AM   #111
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Some of you are missing the point: Not every car is right for evry purpose, and Ford has said right up front that the PP2 is not suitable for the track. They’re being honest. Anyone who buys one hoping it magically will be track-capable is making an expensive mistake. Ford can’t compete, so not misrepresenting the capabilities of what they’ve got for sale is all they’ve got. As one who suffered through owning a ‘16 GT 350, Ford’s message is crystal-clear to me.
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Old 08-01-2018, 07:42 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by 50MileSmile View Post
Some of you are missing the point: Not every car is right for evry purpose, and Ford has said right up front that the PP2 is not suitable for the track. They’re being honest. Anyone who buys one hoping it magically will be track-capable is making an expensive mistake. Ford can’t compete, so not misrepresenting the capabilities of what they’ve got for sale is all they’ve got. As one who suffered through owning a ‘16 GT 350, Ford’s message is crystal-clear to me.

I don't think a single person on this forum missed that point. What most are struggling with is what purpose is the PP2 right for?

No track coolers, and no street tires. Hmmmmmmm......
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