[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeMike

I love this car, and don't want to sell it...but if I can't find a way around this issue...I just don't know if I can keep racing it. I can envision this happening at the end of a 120MPH straight some time, causing major problems. I don't want to drive scared - worrying about whether my car will stop.

Most people benefit from having a little more conservatism built in to the car-driver combination at the higher speeds encountered on the big tracks than they need in the significantly slower-speed autocross environment.

Track driving isn't exactly autocross moved up to higher speeds, so with only a couple of exceptions I can think of (i.e. very tight, very technical sections), I don't think trying to drive road courses like they're autocross except faster is a very good idea.


Norm

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeMike

As I've improved both in Autocross and track days, and have started getting more and more comfortable living at the limits of my SS's traction, I've started hitting the "Ice Mode" problem more and more at events.

For those who aren't familiar with this issue, I will try to explain it to the best of my understanding (if you are familiar, and my explanation is wrong, please correct me so I have better knowledge). Basically, what is happening is that under certain transitions from hard accel into hard braking, the car is sensing some kind of slippage somewhere, thinks the car is on ice, and puts the car into Ice Mode, thus removing power assist from the brake pedal. The pedal becomes very stiff to the feel, and the end result is MUCH less effective braking, causing the car to overshoot the corner. This is not the ABS kicking on...that is a different feeling...and with ABS the car still slows fairly effectively. Also, this is completely independent of the Traction or Stability control (I always drive in Track Mode with TC and SC off). So, the software is overriding my decision to turn all the nannies off.

My experience with this is that it occurs more often towards the end of a session where the brakes are hottest, and when I'm the very closest to driving at the cars limit. Probably coming into corners very hot, but not locking the brakes to the point where ABS kicks on. Just...something that the car is sensing is not quite right to the software. Anyway, it seems to happen to me at the worst possible time - I'm getting ready to post my fast time of the day after nailing the first 95% of an autoX run, and I'm very hot into the final corner and the car decides not to stop. It happened at this past weekend's AX event and my first reaction, after a slew of cursing, was to sell the car.

I love this car, and don't want to sell it...but if I can't find a way around this issue...I just don't know if I can keep racing it. I can envision this happening at the end of a 120MPH straight some time, causing major problems. I don't want to drive scared - worrying about whether my car will stop.

So...my questions to everyone: does this happen to you? How do you manage it? Does anyone know of a software fix? Can I pull some fuse somewhere? Is GM aware of this and just doesn't care?

Another Camaro driver in my local group (1LE) says for him it is about being smoother, and that he notices it will occur on ultra quick transitions from heavy accel to heavy brake. His solution is to just be smoother. If that works for him, fine, but to me a faster transition means faster times, and I don't want my times limited by worrying about software interfering with my improvement. And, ultimately, if I'm stabbing at the brake pedal too quickly, it should the tire's traction limits to be the determining factor of whether I'm not being smooth enough, not the software's interpretation of it.

Thanks for anyone who can help out here,
Mike

Originally Posted by apexit53

I only tracked dayed mine once and never had the issue. with track days vs autocross im a lot more patient on the brakes as im there to have fun and not go for overall lap times so maybe thats why i didnt hit it. Also i maybe got a lap or two without someone in may way.

As for autoX. this is the exact reason i sold mine and went to a civic type R. I couldnt spend another year in the car being nationally competitive knowing once i got to nats i would just have ice mode get in my way.

One solution i had was i had to stop left foot braking with the camaro. It just does not like a lot of throttle then a lot of braking all at once! Planning out your braking zone ahead of time, giving yourself a split second between gas and brake helped me.

Also I ran mine in sport throttle! Track is soo aggressive its kinda stupid. 60% throttle down almost feels like 100% to the floor. going to sport throttle helped make the throttle a lot more linear feeling.

The next solution... get a 2019+ They fixed this issue with the 2019 refresh. Its actually cool because GMs autocross team noticed the issue cause they were having it themselves, and they listened to us.

Its up to you but i would learn with this car and trade in for a 2020 when they fix the refresh. I know for me I will be looking at a 2020 1LE in rally green next year if i can sell the type r at the end of the season!

Originally Posted by apexit53

They fixed it for anything 2019 and newer. I am glad they fixed it for us because if you think about it, autocrossers and track day people are a small part of their market. they didnt have to but because they have an autocross team they did.

nope there will be no software fix.. the reason being from my understanding is you get into safety issues. since it wasnt tested on 2016-2017 camaros they would have to do crash tests again on the older cars and they just wont do it. government regulation stuff i dont fully understand.

why not a 20 1LE in BS with me!! lol

solo spec coupe is cool ut taking to some guys who have done it, the car kinda looses its luster after a while. they wana go faster and have better tires so the end up building STX cars lol

Can you confirm what modifications you were running at the time you experienced "ice mode"? For instance, wheel/tire size different from stock, brake pad setup different from stock, tire compound, etc. In Tadge's answer on the Corvette forum, he references modifications as a possible contributing factor. Just looking to get some clarity on if you've experienced this while stock.

If the 2019's have a 'fix', I wonder how feasible it is to swap over a 2019 ABS module to a '16-18 model year car?

Also, thanks for posting about this. I have never heard of this before!

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I suspect an SS is calibrated differently from a 1LE?
I have not had even a hint of it in 2 yrs of tracking mine at several different venues. And i dont believe any other 1LE owner reported this issue regardless of tires and pads...I did experience it once in my old C5Z at the Glen. I was on slicks, with aggressive pads and aftermarket suspension. Here is a link to some info on the subject from a Vette Forum. It does appear to be ABS calibration related and perhaps influenced by mods:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ing-modes.html

I also suspect the SS and SS 1LE ABS calibrations are slightly different, but if you read the original post as well as feedback on the Corvette forum, apparently people are experiencing this on the 1LE as well.

[carguy55]

No issues like this with my 18 1LE and I've done 24 track days on everything from slow speed to high speed tracks. I have friends that track their 6th gen 1LEs and haven't seen or heard of this issue. I found this on one of the forums:

We ran a 5th gen 1LE in autocross for the past four years before switching to a 6th gen. Unfortunately there is no "cure" for ice mode. The best thing you can do is watch your throttle and brake inputs. Going from wheelspin to the brakes will do it every time. Leave a brief instant between the throttle and brake. On a low grip surface you have to be very gentle on first input to the brakes. My codriver fought with it all 4 years we had the car. I would find it on occasion, but I got pretty good at predicting when it would happen and worked around it. It happens on the 6th gen SS as well. The 6th gen 1LE and ZL1's seem to not suffer the problem. One thing that will make it worse (much worse) is a race pad, or a grabby brake pad. The factory pads seemed to be the best at keeping unacceptable ABS behavior at minimum.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by carguy55

No issues like this with my 18 1LE and I've done 24 track days on everything from slow speed to high speed tracks. I have friends that track their 6th gen 1LEs and haven't seen or heard of this issue. I found this on one of the forums:

We ran a 5th gen 1LE in autocross for the past four years before switching to a 6th gen. Unfortunately there is no "cure" for ice mode. The best thing you can do is watch your throttle and brake inputs. Going from wheelspin to the brakes will do it every time. Leave a brief instant between the throttle and brake. On a low grip surface you have to be very gentle on first input to the brakes. My codriver fought with it all 4 years we had the car. I would find it on occasion, but I got pretty good at predicting when it would happen and worked around it. It happens on the 6th gen SS as well. The 6th gen 1LE and ZL1's seem to not suffer the problem. One thing that will make it worse (much worse) is a race pad, or a grabby brake pad. The factory pads seemed to be the best at keeping unacceptable ABS behavior at minimum.

The original post above and this post in the link below make reference to 'ice mode' on the 6th gen SS 1LE as well, so not sure 1LEs are immune to the problem either.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...post1598048976

I'm still wondering how much modifications contribute to this since GM can't test every combo of tire diameter, pad/tire compound, etc. If the team has really fixed it on the 2019 models, I'd be interested to hear from them whatever they are willing to share on the subject. I see someone has added this question to the "Ask Al" / "Ask Camaro Team" section of this forum.

[TrackClub]

The OP has a 17 2SS so it aint a 1LE...
Unsure if Vette forum instances are regular C7s or Z06s...I know a few guys tracking the latter and never heard of anyone complaining. So indeed calibrations may be different between various models?

When it happened to me in my C5Z i changed my braking a bit by simply touching a brake for an instant before applying hard pressure and never had the problem again.
This is a good idea regardless of anything else - to settle the rear - and prevent excessive weight transfer.
As Norm has mentioned the brake trace should be steep but never vertical. And the very initial brake application matters tons to the overall balance of the car under braking. And i suspect to electronic algos as well...especially in not "track specific" model.

Braking is by far the hardest, most difficult aspect of performance driving. If it wasnt everyone would be able to drive like Hamilton (or these days: like Bottas )

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

The OP has a 17 2SS so it aint a 1LE...
Unsure if Vette forum instances are regular C7s or Z06s...I know a few guys tracking the latter and never heard of anyone complaining. So indeed calibrations may be different between various models?

When it happened to me in my C5Z i changed my braking a bit by simply touching a brake for an instant before applying hard pressure and never had the problem again.
This is a good idea regardless of anything else - to settle the rear - and prevent excessive weight transfer.
As Norm has mentioned the brake trace should be steep but never vertical. And the very initial brake application matters tons to the overall balance of the car under braking. And i suspect to electronic algos as well...especially in not "track specific" model.

Braking is by far the hardest, most difficult aspect of performance driving. If it wasnt everyone would be able to drive like Hamilton (or these days: like Bottas )

I agree with what you're saying. I was just pointing out in the original post, he wrote this regarding the 1LE model (I'm assuming he was referring to SS 1LE, but not sure):

"Another Camaro driver in my local group (1LE) says for him it is about being smoother, and that he notices it will occur on ultra quick transitions from heavy accel to heavy brake. His solution is to just be smoother. "

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

I agree with what you're saying. I was just pointing out in the original post, he wrote this regarding the 1LE model (I'm assuming he was referring to SS 1LE, but not sure):

"Another Camaro driver in my local group (1LE) says for him it is about being smoother, and that he notices it will occur on ultra quick transitions from heavy accel to heavy brake. His solution is to just be smoother. "

Ya agree, but was it stock? What was the skill of the driver? I can't comment about the few folks that are having issues at AutoX, but by and large I'd say it is pilot error, or lack of sufficient skill.

Most certainly this would be my opinion about a 1le on a road circuit. Why? Because if there was an inherent ABS calibration issue, then tons of VERY fast folks right on this forum would have run into it. Especially when running out of std wheels with full slicks. And anyone running fast laps at Laguna would experience it, starting with Randy Pobst

I am not the fastest guy by any means, but my PBs are on par with Time Attack championship runs at some local venues for the class. I have not had a hint of this issue. But i have spent tons of effort working on my braking technique over the years.

The attached vid of "another 1le having an issue" is a big joke, given the car has TWIN TURBOS, modded suspension and runs out of std wheels/tires. Please let's not call it a 1LE! But, it is a good vid to watch (except for a shocker when you hear a kid on board during competition). The guy does a very good and composed job during this video. Kudos to him. He doesnt cast blame, etc. Good guy. But what made him almost have a full on wreck was not an ice mode, but rather a massive amount of understeer. And even if ABS prevented him from accessing full brakes it was likely a good thing as he tried applying them pretty much mid corner, meaning he would have likely spun out and broad sided that truck. Especially given how mucb steering lock he dialed. His car was out of balance as he added massive amount of throttle just before the turn, which was right after a crest, causing him to catch some air, rear getting light and effectively both braking or turning was being done with only 2 front wheels. He got very lucky imo.

Regardless of the above, or the merits (or not) of my own musings about it, let's look at what function ABS plays:

Its role is to PREVENT LOCKUP and thus enable a driver to continue to STEER. It is a safety feature. Period. But its intervention will ELONGATE any braking zone. By design. And it needs TRACTION from tires to perform its function. So if anyone brakes late and then just stomps on a brake with zero weight transfer management the rear will go up in a dramatic fashion and most of the braking will be done by 2 vs 4 wheels (lest we forget, it is TIRES that slow down the car). Now without ABS the fronts would lock up immediately and a driver would either immediately lose control, or REDUCE brake pressure to regain traction THEN try again but softer. That's what us old folk who drove sans ABS surely know about all too well

So what is "ice mode" likely trying to do? While a driver effects sudden 100% brake pressure and a lock up is imminent, the ABS will take over and reduce actual pressure not to permit the lock up in the first place. Pedal gets super hard to prevent any more driver input as it would make it worse vs better. While perhaps waiting to hear from rear tires about their traction.That's what my logic tells me. Perhaps different models have different parms that deal with it differently. But it is important to understand that ABS will NOT shorten brake zones! To the contrary. And if one shocks the system ABS will engage every time. Now if one thinks this is worse than not having ABS then apparently one can pull some fuses. But if anyone thinks it is safer or easier to deal with a lock up at 140mph then think again long and hard.

Instead, i would (very respectfully) suggest folks spend more time practicing how to effect proper weight transfer during braking. Like i said before, the initial brake application is crucial.

Lastly, putting higher torque pads on the F vs R may surely bring this fugly situation to the forefront as well, as it would again put more braking work on the fronts (vs a balance the car is DESIGNED for with the same torque values on both ends of it).

Cheers!

[JeffFox]

[Zombie killer]

Like most other forum replies, ice mode is controllable in most situations by being smooth. I have autocrossed and tracked my 2013 SS and have experienced ice mode many times until I understood my choice of brake pads and braking style contributed to 99.9 % of my problems. When I have run the HP+ pads and would aggressively step (ok I would stab) on the brakes at the last minute while I was simultaneously letting off the accelerator, it would cause ice mode. It rarely happened too many places on course except the finish line at autox events which was when I was being too aggressive on the brake pedal. I have since backed off and use a slightly less aggressive pad and I have never seen ice mode again in years. I have run track pads on many track days but I have never saw ice mode on track even with the mods on my Camaro. I have stood on them hard enough to activate ABS into a turn from high speeds but never stabbed the brakes to activate any ice mode condition.

[94boosted]

OP according to Ryan O the ice mode from worst to best goes like this:

Gen 6 LT/SS -> Gen 5 SS 1LE -> 2017-18 SS 1LE -> 2019 SS 1LE -> 2018+ ZL1 1LE

A mismatch from stock tire size diameter front to rear ratio coupled with more agressive than stock pads as others have said makes the issue worse.

Originally Posted by apexit53

The next solution... get a 2019+ They fixed this issue with the 2019 refresh. Its actually cool because GMs autocross team noticed the issue cause they were having it themselves, and they listened to us.

That's what everyone thought but sadly that's not the case, the 2019 SS 1LE still gets ice mode especially on bumpy lots. Somone from the NNJR region posted on RRAX about a new 19' SS 1LE on 305 stones getting lots of ice mode

[HawkeyeMike]

Thanks all for the replies and discussion. Some more info, that was asked for or referenced above...
- My car is a 2SS and close to stock. It has a front sway bar and EBC Bluestuffs pads. I am running 19" wheels all around, with RE71rs. That's pretty much all we are allowed to do if we want to stay in F Street. Last year, I had similar issues towards the end of the season with stock pads, no bar, and the stock 20" wheels. So, I believe the mods have little or nothing to do with this.
- As far as my skill level, I have no idea how to answer, especially in comparison to those who posted about driving style. I don't really have a lot of reference points in comparison to others as I've only been AX for a few years (so that alone should tell you I'm no expert). On the good side, I won F Street in my region last year, and was 3rd in overall PAX points. I have several track days both on motorcycles (earlier in my life) and a few with the Camaro and it seems like I typically fall on the quicker side of the Intermediates, or one of the slower but-not-in-the-way Advanced. On the other hand...don't take the above to mean that I claim to be fast, I've had skilled drivers get in my car and drive it faster than me. I am planning to go to Nationals for the first time this year, to learn and to get a feel where I really fall against that level of competition. My only real goal is to not finish last! Not sure if that helps the conversation, but just trying to give more context.
- I will say this, fast or not...I've driven enough to know that edge of stabbing the brakes vs smooth but very fast application. I know what it's like to lose the front end on a car in a corner because I wasn't smooth enough on brake application, or from understeer caused by too much trail braking. I'm not saying I'm an expert broker, but I am saying that I have made enough mistakes to know what they feel like. And the whole point of this post in the first place is that I believe the car still has a little more to give here if the electronics wouldn't get in the way, and I was hoping for a fix or workaround that was more than change my driving style.

But, it seems that that truly is the answer here. I will try and experiment over the next few events with my style and use some of the recommendations here. Maybe I can find something that doesn't make me feel like I'm losing time. I think my first focus point will be to drop the throttle to Sport mode as opposed to Track, and make very sure that I'm not having real-wheel spin leading up to the braking. I noticed that was a telltale sign from reading through one of the posts you guys linked to - and I'm thinking that for me, maybe I was on the throttle strong enough right before braking that there was some spin in the rears right before lifting. Maybe that will help. I'll report back what I find if anyone is interested.

And as far as GM not really fixing the issue...bummer...I almost ordered a new '20 1LE this weekend. jk

Thanks again,
Mike

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by 94boosted

OP according to Ryan O the ice mode from worst to best goes like this:

Gen 6 LT/SS -> Gen 5 SS 1LE -> 2017-18 SS 1LE -> 2019 SS 1LE -> 2018+ ZL1 1LE

A mismatch from stock tire size diameter front to rear ratio coupled with more agressive than stock pads as others hve said makes the issue worse.



That's what everyone thought but sadly that's not the case, the 2019 SS 1LE still gets ice mode especially on bumpy lots. Somone from the NNJR region posted on RRAX about a new 19' SS 1LE on 305 stones getting lots of ice mode

Couple questions:

Who's Ryan O.?

Do you have a link to the '19 SS 1LE with ice mode complaint?

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I suspect an SS is calibrated differently from a 1LE?
I have not had even a hint of it in 2 yrs of tracking mine at several different venues. And i dont believe any other 1LE owner reported this issue regardless of tires and pads...I did experience it once in my old C5Z at the Glen. I was on slicks, with aggressive pads and aftermarket suspension. Here is a link to some info on the subject from a Vette Forum. It does appear to be ABS calibration related and perhaps influenced by mods:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ing-modes.html

Yes the SS calibration is different than the 1LE. its mainly based off what tires the car comes with factory. because the 1LE has larger stickier rubber its calibrated different.

Originally Posted by vtirocz

Can you confirm what modifications you were running at the time you experienced "ice mode"? For instance, wheel/tire size different from stock, brake pad setup different from stock, tire compound, etc. In Tadge's answer on the Corvette forum, he references modifications as a possible contributing factor. Just looking to get some clarity on if you've experienced this while stock.

If the 2019's have a 'fix', I wonder how feasible it is to swap over a 2019 ABS module to a '16-18 model year car?

Also, thanks for posting about this. I have never heard of this before!



I also suspect the SS and SS 1LE ABS calibrations are slightly different, but if you read the original post as well as feedback on the Corvette forum, apparently people are experiencing this on the 1LE as well.

19" wheels, front swaybar, and RE71R tires.

It comes down to calibration. The cars were tested with the tires they come with, not the stickier rubber we throw on them after the fact. The system doesnt, or didnt know how to deal with the extra grip the car was getting. if that makes sense..

[TrackClub]

Good discussion. I think an average autox pavement has a lot to do with it vs say: tire choices. So it sure seems that either bumps and/or very quick transitions between rear wheel spin and hard brake applications are the major cause. Why technically speaking i have no idea, except that is surely looks that such instances make ABS engage to prevent lock up, yet be unable to engage just yet, perhaps due to the car being unsettled.

Interestingly, even pros point out to bumps and street circuits in general (due to bumps) as having to be treated very carefully and GENTLY under braking. I know i have said it before, but the initial (softer) application (even if only for a nano second) to settle the rear before standing on the brakes is crucial. It is also much harder to accomplish (well) vs just say it.

Here's some general thoughts on late braking from the pros. Note - specifically - what is being said in the first 1.5 mins of this quick vid. This is not at all unlike the problems that pros in race cars can experience in similar situations.

http://safeisfast.com/video/late-braking/