[KingLT1]

Brett made 1000 with a Whipple. The available supercharger options have never been the issue. Guys are simply figuring out the fueling and tuning needed for these gen5 engines. It's only going to get better...

[Lt4zl1]

Very interesting read here between all options. Yet none of the builds are done with out going into a bottom end. All of them have a cam minimum to hit the different power levels. I will just say depends on your goals but over 800whp is possible on a jokerz performance ported 1.7 ltr. On just bolt ons. I am on about the same setup as many full bolt on cars but rather then use dual nozzles I have been using starting with dual nozzles in my stock lid to now 8 in a custom lid that snow performance built as the prototype to the nx billet lid. I had found quite a while ago that spraying meth in the lid it took a lot less to cool and add the same fuel as the typical dual nozzle pre boost. Since perfecting my nozzle sizes I’ve managed to get the car into the mid 9s with zero heat issues when was on 16 psi. I have since gone to 18 on this 1.7 and still not running into any heat issues at all. My car can run 4-5 back to back passes and not slow down a single mph. I have no doubt on this new setup a little more post and the newest jokerz port the car will go into the low 9s at near 150 mph still on the stock heads and stock cam. Do I want more of course I do so a 2650 will end up on my car. Magnuson or a lt5 if can swing that as I’d rather run port injection then spend all that extra money on the belt driven di pump. I just don’t want to open up the motor yet as I feel no one has hit on a good enough cam grind to make it worth while to do the swap. Very few heads and cam setups on a stock blower are over 800whp and most that can make the number on the dyno don’t even run as well as my bolt on car. (Csp for instance) with 830 I believe as couldn’t break a 9.70 or 141 mph if remember right. I’ve been 9.70 145 and 9.52 143. As car ran like crap that pass over retarded the cam and fell on its face plus it hung the 6/7 shift. A clean pass it’s a 9.35@145 plus as I know my car. So don’t sell the stock blower short if trying to run mid 9s 145 range and not wanting to do a cam swap yet. Anyone can copy my build and do the same things here. Yes I do my own tuning but I’m sure it’s nothing special other then I have leaned this platform well and know what it likes for timing and lambda. Once I push this to the point I feel I can hold a bolt on record for a while I’ll swap to a bigger blower and see how far the stock cam will take me on power. It’s been fun pushing this 1.7 to places no one said it could go especially with only bolt ons. The luxury anyone has when using the larger cam lobe is huge when trying to make that up with methanol and spray it equally enough to each cylinder that the car can still make really good power. Seen over 30whp on a car that went from alky dual nozzles to a port style kit on the nx lid and it’s spraying less total gpm then the dual nozzle setup. But like to see more big blower stock bottom end builds to see where they hold up vrs my current setup which is also full weight at a typical 4100 with me in it and near full tank so the car will hook.
I have enjoyed the whole thread with lots of good info here.

[laynlo15]

Good read, I ran 9.41@146 in the heat of the summer at Bowling Green. When the temps finally cooled I started to have traction issues and I could have run some 9.20s but just couldn't hook the car with it making a bunch more power but since I don't really tune I couldn't get a handle on it. If I'd pulled some timing down low soon enough I might have shown that improvement. I did run 5.99@119 on one pass but it was still not hooked but got lucky on one pass and didn't get out of it like I had on some earlier passes. I'm making pretty good power as I did run 9.46@149 on a 1.42 60ft. So power wasn't my problem it was not getting the tune right before the crank broke the snout on the last pass of the year. Your car is wicked fast for what you have done to it. You get a 2650 Maggie and get the tune right you'll make some faster wicked passes this year. The fastest Gen6 pass is 8.40@163 and it has 2650 Maggie Heartbreaker and weighs about 4000 lbs with driver. I don't know what the fastest Whipple or Ebrock is but don't think its even close that number but both can make great power. One Zl1 did run low 8.60s@157 or close to that with an F1 Procharger. So blower options are endless and they can all make great power its just getting the right package together is the key and you found that with your Zl1. Impressive for sure.

[Lt4zl1]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

Good read, I ran 9.41@146 in the heat of the summer at Bowling Green. When the temps finally cooled I started to have traction issues and I could have run some 9.20s but just couldn't hook the car with it making a bunch more power but since I don't really tune I couldn't get a handle on it. If I'd pulled some timing down low soon enough I might have shown that improvement. I did run 5.99@119 on one pass but it was still not hooked but got lucky on one pass and didn't get out of it like I had on some earlier passes. I'm making pretty good power as I did run 9.46@149 on a 1.42 60ft. So power wasn't my problem it was not getting the tune right before the crank broke the snout on the last pass of the year. Your car is wicked fast for what you have done to it. You get a 2650 Maggie and get the tune right you'll make some faster wicked passes this year. The fastest Gen6 pass is 8.40@163 and it has 2650 Maggie Heartbreaker and weighs about 4000 lbs with driver. I don't know what the fastest Whipple or Ebrock is but don't think its even close that number but both can make great power. One Zl1 did run low 8.60s@157 or close to that with an F1 Procharger. So blower options are endless and they can all make great power its just getting the right package together is the key and you found that with your Zl1. Impressive for sure.

Yes I watch your car for sure as with no methanol that’s a plus and it’s running well. My question is are you using a cam or on a stock cam? This is where it is hard to compare a lot of these builds to my own. Now granted some cams seem to do much of nothing other then provide extra push to the fuel pump but for power it’s very questionable. Why I have to run so much methanol on mine as using it for fueling. I tune my car so it doesn’t care about weather much. I have ran 143-145 in the dead of summer on a 9.70 pass as track was greasy and cutting 1.65 and up and spinning through second then ran the same mph in the winter but got the et to drop a few tenths with getting it to hook up. 6.0@115 was my best 1/8th as the car retarded the cam to 12 degrees at the 1-2 shift and it crushed the power. Then went right to 7 which I tend to see and held so I lost a lot from that as when cam goes over 8 it seems to kill power. It did it again on the 6-7 made it shift funny slip too I believe anyway the cam causes it. I had not done a retune to a throttle body change and meth controller. So that pass was ugly and went that fast. I do believe with this final blower port being done and cleaning up my tune I’ll go 9.30s 148 with it in the summer. That pass was a 5.10 60-130 and on the street cleaning the tune up went 4.86 so far and now more blower porting and will be around 18/19 psi when done. Yea extremely max effort on a 1.7 and sure if I had a 2300 or 2650 and was doing this I’d have an 8 second car. I know these very well and what it takes to make them fast. First one in the 9s on bolt ons and been getting faster every time I get back to the track.
For me I’d like to see a stock cam car like mine on one of these setups if yours is I’m mistaken and then seeing some good info where I can then take the combo using methanol so on. Back when Jessie lwuji was there I was working hard to try to get one of the first 2650s to test but guess something happened and left or fired and I lost my hope for any of that to happen but I was trying as I had already gone 9.71@141 on the stock stuff even the blower was hand ported by me at that point and was only on 14 psi. So yet to get the rest of this figured out as car is making a lot more power but issues going down the track with it a lot. But I was using that to push trying to get the blower and prove it’s worth vrs a max effort 1.7 at that time. Really like to see this newest version I’ll change the hood add the insert what ever it takes to run one if it’s better. But for now I’m going to take this 1.7 into the sub 9.30s and lower and have no doubt on that. I’m in a minority I guess with not wanting to do a cam till I see gains like I see with the c6z where can drop a good cam in it leave the heads and pick up 75whp. When I see that then I’ll do a cam I’m not going through all that for 20whp I do all my own work tuning everything so it’s my effort and time and not about money so for the time spent not seeing what I want yet with a cam swap. I had a chance to grab a 2300 for 2k a while ago and now wishing I had done it just for the testing side of it and seeing what I could do on that vrs my setup now. I waited and missed it then 2650s soon were available and then got the bug of that being my next setup. I have no doubt I’ll get my car to run better as most on one as that’s what I do. Lol I’m sure I’ll make that blower look great if that’s the road I end up doing just waiting to see more from them and stock bolt on zr1 cars to choose which route I’ll do. If the one for port comes out this one Jessie was telling me about being more of a universal direct injection setup I guess like the lsx hot rod blower then that will be the option I end up doing but yet to see one for di that’s not the current one.
Thanks for always giving great input on your personal car.

[IneedAZ]

LT4zl1 What track do you run at?

[Tonyms2249]

Originally Posted by Lt4zl1

Very interesting read here between all options. Yet none of the builds are done with out going into a bottom end. All of them have a cam minimum to hit the different power levels. I will just say depends on your goals but over 800whp is possible on a jokerz performance ported 1.7 ltr. On just bolt ons. I am on about the same setup as many full bolt on cars but rather then use dual nozzles I have been using starting with dual nozzles in my stock lid to now 8 in a custom lid that snow performance built as the prototype to the nx billet lid. I had found quite a while ago that spraying meth in the lid it took a lot less to cool and add the same fuel as the typical dual nozzle pre boost. Since perfecting my nozzle sizes I’ve managed to get the car into the mid 9s with zero heat issues when was on 16 psi. I have since gone to 18 on this 1.7 and still not running into any heat issues at all. My car can run 4-5 back to back passes and not slow down a single mph. I have no doubt on this new setup a little more post and the newest jokerz port the car will go into the low 9s at near 150 mph still on the stock heads and stock cam. Do I want more of course I do so a 2650 will end up on my car. Magnuson or a lt5 if can swing that as I’d rather run port injection then spend all that extra money on the belt driven di pump. I just don’t want to open up the motor yet as I feel no one has hit on a good enough cam grind to make it worth while to do the swap. Very few heads and cam setups on a stock blower are over 800whp and most that can make the number on the dyno don’t even run as well as my bolt on car. (Csp for instance) with 830 I believe as couldn’t break a 9.70 or 141 mph if remember right. I’ve been 9.70 145 and 9.52 143. As car ran like crap that pass over retarded the cam and fell on its face plus it hung the 6/7 shift. A clean pass it’s a 9.35@145 plus as I know my car. So don’t sell the stock blower short if trying to run mid 9s 145 range and not wanting to do a cam swap yet. Anyone can copy my build and do the same things here. Yes I do my own tuning but I’m sure it’s nothing special other then I have leaned this platform well and know what it likes for timing and lambda. Once I push this to the point I feel I can hold a bolt on record for a while I’ll swap to a bigger blower and see how far the stock cam will take me on power. It’s been fun pushing this 1.7 to places no one said it could go especially with only bolt ons. The luxury anyone has when using the larger cam lobe is huge when trying to make that up with methanol and spray it equally enough to each cylinder that the car can still make really good power. Seen over 30whp on a car that went from alky dual nozzles to a port style kit on the nx lid and it’s spraying less total gpm then the dual nozzle setup. But like to see more big blower stock bottom end builds to see where they hold up vrs my current setup which is also full weight at a typical 4100 with me in it and near full tank so the car will hook.
I have enjoyed the whole thread with lots of good info here.

You have a PM sir.

Thanks

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Hot/muggy isn't really going to matter with either supercharger driving to or from work. You will have the same air flowing through the heat exchanger and more then likely air temps between the 2 are not going to be drastically different in that situation. Where the 2650 will shine is on it's ability to recover faster after a hard run and maintaining a cooler temp at the top end of the pull. Any setup NA, PD, Centri, or Turbo will make less power in the heat compared to a cooler day...especially on 93. Here is where E85 comes into effect. It allows you to set the IAT vs Spark table higher because it burns cooler and less detonation prone. Very beneficial for hot climates.

Some options for better cooling....may or may not be needed.

Interchiller
Bigger heat exchanger
Thermal reduction plates
Kong porting

The caveat is how much do you invest into the stock supercharger before it makes more sense to just grab the 2650?

I was just saying if you are looking for 730whp and to rip off a high 9 second time slip, the stock LT4 has done it with bolt-ons and flex fuel. Now if you are trying to bracket race or road course that power level, then you might end up spending enough money on the LT4 cooling mods(to keep the car consistent) where it makes more sense to just get the 2650.

Don't want you to think I am saying NOT to get the 2650, it's just not needed for the guy that hits the track once or twice a year to rip off a 9.9 1/4 mi pass and call it good...all comes down to goals.

Very sensible approach to upgrades here.

[EDFHOBBIES]

Anyone logged temps yet running around town in real world environment on the maggi to compare? I know this is an old thread but a lot of it was bashing each other with no proof about Edelbrock's cooling abilities or maggi's for that matter just mike's findings.

1st the maggi is a good blower no doubt! but there are other options. You can't go by past Edelbrock info from the LS3 2300.

Here is an example of Normal driving in Houston on a 100 degree day and what i logged and noticed.

Just Cruising at 60 to 70mph in 100 degree Heat I recorded the following temps:

IAT1 100 degrees
IAT2 108 to 110 degrees
IAT3 126 Degrees

If I do a long pull from 60 mph in 3rd then shifting to 4th to 150 I see IAT2 fall to 99 degrees and IAT 3 falls 1 or 2 degrees but rises to 134 after I let off. It takes only about 5 to 10 seconds and IAT 2 and 3 go back to normal cruising temps.

Here is a tiny pull in 4th and you can see IAT2 drop from 108 to 106 the same exact stuff maggi claimed that only happens with there unit.





I'm going to try and and log a 3rd and 4th pull I need a way to mount the camera the video is short mainly cuz im one handed and I'm not even in the gas all the way and you can here it still breaking loose. So as soon as I can figure something safer I'll do a longer pull and have IAT3 on the gauge maybe by then I'll have a dragy. to do the 60 -150 pull.

[radz28]

Aren't you running upgraded cooling? I thought I remembered a HE group buy you were trying to help out with. Also - Is you IAT3 the same as MAT? MAT's what the ECM cares about for IAT Advance.

[EDFHOBBIES]

Originally Posted by radz28

Aren't you running upgraded cooling? I thought I remembered a HE group buy you were trying to help out with. Also - Is you IAT3 the same as MAT? MAT's what the ECM cares about for IAT Advance.

my car makes over 1000 at the wheels over 850 no matter the system should have some cooling mods. If I was at 850 on 93 octane I would not have any cooling mods.


Matt told me that MAT or IAT3 temps doesn't pull timing till 169 on all E and 150 on 93. Unless I sat still for 10 or 15 mins in traffic in 100 degrees or was a track beating on it then sitting in staging lane the temps would be high enough to effect timing. I ran a few people 3 times consecutively 60 to 140 and the temps never where over 140 and recovered fast.

Just a trunk tank I was given a 300 Exchanger with the dimensions of weaponx's. Seeing how ADM uses a Ron Davis design with stock dimension I doubt its helping that much for cooling. On a Normal Zl1 with no capacity changes (I.E. no tank and using the factory fill setup) I can see where it would help a ton if you did the 2 bigger exchangers for the SC coolant you would be adding some capacity over the stock system.

If I remember correctly those shizzy, toohigh, and someone else told me that my edelbrock would never cool as well as a maggi even if I had a chiller.

This just proves that they went off old data or just looked at there core size and did an educated guess. They loved to brag how IAT 2 falls during acceleration but fail to mention that the Edelbrock does as well. It's all good though both units are good.


My wife SS 2300 LT blower

In 100 degrees just cruising at 60 or 70

Runs an IAT of 118 intake temp and 134 IAT 3 of course its not setup like the my ZL1 that came with a blower since its a calculated number between the MAS and Tmap with that braeak out baro cable.

Her intake temp IAT 1 reading never matches the out side temp like mine does.


Below is yesterday: 30 min of driving some stop n go traffic

IAT 1 82 matched the outside temp
IAT 2 93
IAT 3 104
Oil eng temp 189
Eng Coolant temp 195


************************yet to see a 1000 HP maggi post IATs**************************

[radz28]

Originally Posted by EDFHOBBIES

my car makes over 1000 at the wheels over 850 no matter the system should have some cooling mods. If I was at 850 on 93 octane I would not have any cooling mods.


Matt told me that MAT or IAT3 temps doesn't pull timing till 169 on all E and 150 on 93. Unless I sat still for 10 or 15 mins in traffic in 100 degrees or was a track beating on it then sitting in staging lane the temps would be high enough to effect timing. I ran a few people 3 times consecutively 60 to 140 and the temps never where over 140 and recovered fast.

Just a trunk tank I was given a 300 Exchanger with the dimensions of weaponx's. Seeing how ADM uses a Ron Davis design with stock dimension I doubt its helping that much for cooling. On a Normal Zl1 with no capacity changes (I.E. no tank and using the factory fill setup) I can see where it would help a ton if you did the 2 bigger exchangers for the SC coolant you would be adding some capacity over the stock system.

If I remember correctly those shizzy, toohigh, and someone else told me that my edelbrock would never cool as well as a maggi even if I had a chiller.

This just proves that they went off old data or just looked at there core size and did an educated guess. They loved to brag how IAT 2 falls during acceleration but fail to mention that the Edelbrock does as well. It's all good though both units are good.


My wife SS 2300 LT blower

In 100 degrees just cruising at 60 or 70

Runs an IAT of 118 intake temp and 134 IAT 3 of course its not setup like the my ZL1 that came with a blower since its a calculated number between the MAS and Tmap with that braeak out baro cable.

Her intake temp IAT 1 reading never matches the out side temp like mine does.


Below is yesterday: 30 min of driving some stop n go traffic

IAT 1 82 matched the outside temp
IAT 2 93
IAT 3 104
Oil eng temp 189
Eng Coolant temp 195


************************yet to see a 1000 HP maggi post IATs**************************

Sure - but you're running a ported blower. I think that was the point from some people - at least for me. Regardless - we'll probably never get an apples-to-apples anyways. Your 2650 has been shown to make at least the same power as a Maggie, so I don't think which matters. I had a specific issue with yours, but probably not many others would care.

Stock adders start pulling timing around 140* MAT or something. Sorian probably modified yours some. I know I was able to remove timing-pull on a car I know near where yours is, but that's on completely stock cooling, and stock everything-else, lol.

At any rate - those are good numbers though. That intercooler upgrade you had has my mouth watering though... I need to keep things stealthy, so much more than that probably won't fly.

[EDFHOBBIES]

Go to video #2 maggie come w stage 2 port. Also I proved its cheaper to port Edelbrock's then maggie and a 103 or 112 snout.

I hate the bickering they caused and how they down played the edelbrock. Both are good blowers.

[radz28]

Originally Posted by EDFHOBBIES

Go to video #2 maggie come w stage 2 port. Also I proved its cheaper to port Edelbrock's then maggie and a 103 or 112 snout.

I hate the bickering they caused and how they down played the edelbrock. Both are good blowers.

People aren't porting Maggies. All come with "Stage 2" ports from Magnuson. That's just what they call it. There is no option for any other port.

[EDFHOBBIES]

Originally Posted by radz28

People aren't porting Maggies. All come with "Stage 2" ports from Magnuson. That's just what they call it. There is no option for any other port.

Yes I know...

But, you can clearly see how open the stock maggi is compared to the edelbrock. When I mean open I mean no casting material in front of the rotor pack (stage 2) I think it only fair to match since the maggi is 6300 plus a snout cost 300 to 400 bucks at the time the edelbrock was 52 to 5800 and kong porting was 1200 the price is the same if not lower counting the porting. Still haven't seen anyone log temps like me or making 1000 plus on a 8.3 lower and 3 inch upper they are all using 9.xx and 10 something to make 1000.