[Tachitup]

From the guys that have run the Goodyear 3R's this what I think we've learned so far about the 3R's:

• The 3R's warmup slower than other tires > notably the RE71R's and Sport Cup 2's.
  • This is interesting because in my experience with other cars, the RE71R warms up fast and gives it fastest laps almost immediately, then gets too hot by laps 3 or 4.
  • On the other hand, I have found that the Sport Cup 2 is slow to warm up and gives it's faster laps after 3 or 4 laps.

• The 3R's don't seem to loose their grip once they do warm up.

• Assuming that your front toe setting isn't set with too much toe-out (like more than a 1/16" ) the 3R's seem to last 3 or more track days.

Very interested still in what hands-on experiences track drivers have had with 3R's compared to Toyo R888R and Nitto NT01. As far as I can tell, these 3 brands and models are the only motorsport tires with a UTQG of at least 100.

Back to you guys.

[Tachitup]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

They must have done your alignment with the plates on the street setting and then turned them to the track setting if you had a bunch of toe out. Like you mention toe out will kill the inside edge quick.

When I adjusted my camber plates my tow went from zero at my track setting to 3/16" in by reducing the camber plate by 1.5 degrees just as a reference point for you.

Hey Eric,

Not to turn this into a camber plate adjustment / alignment setting thread, but I assume you're running top camber plates that allow you to quickly adjust camber from a street setting to a track setting. What alignment settings, including toe, have you found works best for track ?

Thanks.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Dwille

I got 5 hours of track time, 1500 miles, and 40 autocross runs before the inside edges on the front wore out. The rears are into the wear bars all the across. The inside edges of the fronts showed signs of overheating (blistering). I am assuming track use did them in.

I had the dealer set the alignment to the Chevy track alignment (ZL1 1LE specs) and all of the above was with this settings. It should have had a small amount of toe in in the front. When I checked the alignment with toe plates and camber gauge at home (after the fronts corded) I saw that the front end had significant toe out! Front camber, rear camber and toe were all the way they should have been. I reset the front toe to the smidge of toe in Chevy recommends.

My suspicion is the toe out did in my front tires. After adjusting the front toe I checked the tires with a probe style pyrometer at a recent track day. The inside edge temperatures were reasonable. Outer edges were a bit hotter. I have yet to measure how much the toe changes between street and track camber settings.

I am getting the alignment rechecked on a machine, and will check the toe change from switching between the settings on the camber plates. I will do some tire temperature testing.

I am now running the Michelin PS4S. I had some left over after One Lap and want to test the car on them. I do want to get back to the Goodyears though. It is a very likeable tire and I suspect when I get the alignment sorted they should be relatively durable. Or I hope they will be anyway.

When we set the front camber plates to "track" at JPSS, we measured toe before and after, and confirmed there was about 1/16"" toe IN at the "street setting", and 1/16" toe OUT in the "track setting". Per tire.

Let us know what you find out.

[Tachitup]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Keep in mind- if this was the only alignment you had done on your brand new Zl1-1LE, the alignment will walk considerably after your first time on track. Yes, the ZL1-1LE has a lot of metal/metal mounting and harder bushings...but ALL new cars alignments move around and take a set the first time they are driven on track. My SS 1LE's toe was completely jacked immediately after its first event, and we're planning on the ZL1-1LE needing another alignment after VIR this coming weekend. Camber will stay pretty stable, but toe will change significnatly... generally towards understeer.

Interesting observation. I can't understand how toe will change significantly but your other settings stay the same. Unless your steering rack is moving around. Curious to hear after VIR what your before and after setting were.

[glamcem]

The difference between the NT01s and used-slicks/fresh R7s is about 1-1.5 second on a 2 min course so I would expect the new 3R tires to fall in somewhere between NT01 and R7s in terms of lap times. NT01 and/or R888R will last a lot longer from what I hear from others here and it's not surprising as they're built to compete with Cup2s.

I have been using 305/325-30-19 NT01s and they've been pretty good as expected from my previous experience with them. My close friend who's been racing for years and tracking his cars switched from NT01 to R888Rs and says they were pretty close to NT01s in terms of grip level and consistency with maybe a slight advantage of R888R over the NT01s. People's experience on TireRack is also pretty similar to his.

I had RE71Rs and didn't like them personally as they didn't do anything better than the NT01s (lap times, consistency, wear, cost..etc). For someone who is looking for a "compromise" tire that allows him/here to drive in the rain and DD, it may be a good alternative though. I personally don't like compromise tires and have a dedicated track setup for the reasons I mentioned above.

On a 650hp car, I would definitely go with the widest avaiable tire to get the most out of that power. Even on my 1LE, the amount of confidence and rear grip compared to 305 G3s tires and Trofeo Rs was very noticeable.

[Provoste]

Originally Posted by Tachitup

Interesting observation. I can't understand how toe will change significantly but your other settings stay the same. Unless your steering rack is moving around. Curious to hear after VIR what your before and after setting were.

There is a whole lot more than just your steering rack that would move around. Upper/lower control arm bushings/ toe arms/ wheel bearings/ upper strut/damper mounts, all these components will ever so slightly shift around and take a set the first time you put load through a chassis. Additionally, toe will change over time if you track your car regularly. I aligned my SS 1LE yesterday for the first time since May- my toe was completely jacked.

[Dwille]

Based on my experience I cannot help but agree. I saw the numbers on the alignment rack and got the printout. I know my toe plate measurements aren't as accurate as a good rack, but it is good enough that I can tell big toe out from toe in. Curiously the front moved and not the rear. Of course the front takes the brunt of any <ahem> curb surfing that might occur on track. The front has settled a small amount on the springs. The rear appears to be the same height (within the noise level of my measurements anyway).

Anyway, I'll be taking the alignment stuff with me and watching it this weekend when I head up to MSR-Cresson. After this weekend I'll have 5 track days and things should be settled in a bit. I'll realign it then, and keep watching it.

My Gen 5 1LE was pretty stable once I found a shop that would actually torque the rear adjusters properly. No substantial change over the last year or so of track use. It also has 50,000 miles on it...so stuff is pretty settled in

Thanks Mr. Wyndham for the scoop on the toe change with the plate. I'll let you know what I see.

Always learning!

[Tachitup]

Originally Posted by glamcem

The difference between the NT01s and used-slicks/fresh R7s is about 1-1.5 second on a 2 min course so I would expect the new 3R tires to fall in somewhere between NT01 and R7s in terms of lap times. NT01 and/or R888R will last a lot longer from what I hear from others here and it's not surprising as they're built to compete with Cup2s.

I have been using 305/325-30-19 NT01s and they've been pretty good as expected from my previous experience with them. My close friend who's been racing for years and tracking his cars switched from NT01 to R888Rs and says they were pretty close to NT01s in terms of grip level and consistency with maybe a slight advantage of R888R over the NT01s. People's experience on TireRack is also pretty similar to his.

.

I'm curious about your comment that you expect the Goodyear 3R to be faster than the NT01 and the R888R. I'd interested in what others have experienced.

As for the NT01 being similar in lap time to the Toyo R888R, I would agree with your comment based on my experience. I've found the Toyo to be slightly faster. This makes sense as Toyo makes the Nitto, and as far as I can determine they both us the same 'GG' compound.

[RUQWIKR]

I am on my second set of 19" G3R's but have no reference point other than to the 20" G3's. Wear on the back on the SS 1LE has been very good and even across with -1.7 to -1.8 camber at rear. My last track day of the year is on Friday and could have probably squeaked the day out of the rear. I have the new rear set on now but saved the others.

Fronts - after the first set corded early on the outside rotating after every track day side to side, I think I am going to try flipping inside out this second set up front - for the dry only. Running -2.7 to -2.8 camber.

I'd like to try the NT01 or R888R next then go off the deep end and put a set of Hoosier R7's on.

[RXtacy]

Originally Posted by RUQWIKR

I am on my second set of 19" G3R's but have no reference point other than to the 20" G3's. Wear on the back on the SS 1LE has been very good and even across with -1.7 to -1.8 camber at rear. My last track day of the year is on Friday and could have probably squeaked the day out of the rear. I have the new rear set on now but saved the others.

Fronts - after the first set corded early on the outside rotating after every track day side to side, I think I am going to try flipping inside out this second set up front - for the dry only. Running -2.7 to -2.8 camber.

I'd like to try the NT01 or R888R next then go off the deep end and put a set of Hoosier R7's on.

FYI TiresDirect.net is running $100 instant rebate and free shipping on Toyo tires currently.

http://www.tiresdirect.net/Webpage.aspx?WebpageId=48

Not affiliated, and haven't ordered from them but will probably grab a set of R888R's for next season.

[Eric SS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

When we set the front camber plates to "track" at JPSS, we measured toe before and after, and confirmed there was about 1/16"" toe IN at the "street setting", and 1/16" toe OUT in the "track setting". Per tire.

Let us know what you find out.

When I moved my camber at the plates (and left knuckle camber the same) by -1.5° (-3 to -1.5) it moved the toe from zero to 3/16 toe in so yours is pretty close to what I saw.

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Tachitup

I'm curious about your comment that you expect the Goodyear 3R to be faster than the NT01 and the R888R. I'd interested in what others have experienced.

As for the NT01 being similar in lap time to the Toyo R888R, I would agree with your comment based on my experience. I've found the Toyo to be slightly faster. This makes sense as Toyo makes the Nitto, and as far as I can determine they both us the same 'GG' compound.

I do my best to avoid assumptions but sometimes it's very easy to guess the outcomes.
I am almost sure that 3Rs will be slightly faster than NT01/R888R but am definitely sure they're not on the R7/used slicks league so if I had to guess I would put them in between those two categories but closer to the lower end. Less than a second on a 2 minute course maybe?

when it comes to price/performance R888R/NT01 choice is a no brainer IMO, I think that's something everyone can agree The life on those two will be remarkably better than 3R or Cup2s from what I can tell especially when you can get 305/325s (wider the tire longer the treadwear even more on a heavier more powerful car such as ZL1).


The other benefit of the NT01/R888R is that since they're very predictable and consistent it allows to me to focus on improving one corner at a time. It is not possible with hero tires since just when I think I improved something tires are overheated so I feel that I need to back down.


There was a similar discussion and I posted the below picture, NASA's time trial rules booklet and points for certain tires. This is what I believe is a good reference to get an idea in terms of tire performance classification

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

When I moved my camber at the plates (and left knuckle camber the same) by -1.5° (-3 to -1.5) it moved the toe from zero to 3/16 toe in so yours is pretty close to what I saw.

Good to know. It was an interesting feeling being "alone" that early in terms of comparing cars to get familiar.

[Tachitup]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

When I moved my camber at the plates (and left knuckle camber the same) by -1.5° (-3 to -1.5) it moved the toe from zero to 3/16 toe in so yours is pretty close to what I saw.

Thanks for sharing your experiences guys. Sounds like the Total Toe changes by 1/16" for every 1/2 degree camber change when done on both sides. This is a great reference for someone wanting quickly change from say a street setting of a 1/16" in to 1/16" out for track use. Or whatever your secret set-up happens to be.