[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Speedofsound

11.86 in a Zl1? Lmao! No wonder the anger.

Barely modded 18 GTs will be destroying those times.

Tell me another fictional completely made up story that's never gonna happen.

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Tell me another fictional completely made up story that's never gonna happen.

How about the one where the A10 GT proves to be quicker in the 1/4 than a GT350 and then all the Shelby owners, in fits of rage and dismay, sell their cars, boycott Ford, and go out and buy Camaros.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

How about the one where the A10 GT proves to be quicker in the 1/4 than a GT350 and then all the Shelby owners, in fits of rage and dismay, sell their cars, boycott Ford, and go out and buy Camaros.

Oh I think it'll be funny as all hell to see the cheaper GT beat Ford's top performer, lol!! And what's funnier, the Camaro even did that before the GT, HAHA!!

But I really think you guys are getting a little ahead of yourselves and are overestimating the GT. You all did the same thing with the Shelby just to find that the SS 1LE could take the 350 and match the GT350R while the ZL1 could destroy both of them. In fact that was when you guys switched your story up and started talking about how the GT500 was the natural competitor and the every other excuse you all could think up. So what will the excuse be when the SS beats the GT? You better start drumming one up.

[crysalis_01]

Why would there need to be an excuse? If one out performs the other, then it was the better performer. Simple.

I get that you would be upset if a lower positioned car out performed your car in a metric or two. But I don't see how you can logically project that opinion onto others.

A car never stays on top for long. GT350 stayed in production longer than initially anticipated. I'm sure GT's MCE was in planning a couple years ago. Could Ford have also updated the GT350 to clearly be the better performer? Sure. Would they need to to make sure it sells in these "extra innings"? No. Therefore why spend more R&D on a car that's going out of production? I'm sure the lion's share of GT350 owners are fine with their decision/purchase even a dyer the '18 GT's debut.

And I dont exactly understand why you use the term "you guys" as if to lump together anyone and everyone that doesnt agree with your paradigm.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Why would there need to be an excuse? If one out performs the other, then it was the better performer. Simple.

I get that you would be upset if a lower positioned car out performed your car in a metric or two. But I don't see how you can logically project that opinion onto others.

A car never stays on top for long. GT350 stayed in production longer than initially anticipated. I'm sure GT's MCE was in planning a couple years ago. Could Ford have also updated the GT350 to clearly be the better performer? Sure. Would they need to to make sure it sells in these "extra innings"? No. Therefore why spend more R&D on a car that's going out of production? I'm sure the lion's share of GT350 owners are fine with their decision/purchase even a dyer the '18 GT's debut.

And I dont exactly understand why you use the term "you guys" as if to lump together anyone and everyone that doesnt agree with your paradigm.

Because what you pay for a car should directly reflect what you're getting out of it. Especially when you're buying the top tier car produced by a manufacturer. What if Ford made a 4 or 6 cyl EB Mustang faster than the GT and cheaper? Do you for one second think the M6G forum (and Mustang fans everywhere) wouldn't explode in outrage? Or what if the GT500 came out and was slower than the standard GT? Or what if the SS beat the GT350R in a straight line and was convincingly better around a track? Or, what if the price hike for 18 occurred with no bump in power and performance?

Performance and price go hand in hand when you're talking about these types of cars. As much as you want to dismiss it, that is the truth. If a $35K GT is faster in a straight line than the $65K (approx) GT350R that has more hp and less weight then you might try to save face and say it doesn't matter but it does matter. Heck you guys spend half the time arguing that you could buy this or that and build it to be faster than some more expensive car for less money all the time. But now all of a sudden a cheaper car being faster isn't a big deal? Funny how things change...

[MazzaBL]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Because what you pay for a car should directly reflect what you're getting out of it. Especially when you're buying the top tier car produced by a manufacturer. What if Ford made a 4 or 6 cyl EB Mustang faster than the GT and cheaper? Do you for one second think the M6G forum (and Mustang fans everywhere) wouldn't explode in outrage? Or what if the GT500 came out and was slower than the standard GT? Or what if the SS beat the GT350R in a straight line and was convincingly better around a track? Or, what if the price hike for 18 occurred with no bump in power and performance?

Performance and price go hand in hand when you're talking about these types of cars. As much as you want to dismiss it, that is the truth. If a $35K GT is faster in a straight line than the $65K (approx) GT350R that has more hp and less weight then you might try to save face and say it doesn't matter but it does matter. Heck you guys spend half the time arguing that you could buy this or that and build it to be faster than some more expensive car for less money all the time. But now all of a sudden a cheaper car being faster isn't a big deal? Funny how things change...

What you’re saying isn’t exactly true. Every year a new performance car comes out, it improves when changes are implemented. That’s automotive progress. Just because the GT350/350R are the current halo mustangs, doesn’t mean lesser trim mustangs will never surpass old gen halo car performance. For example, you have current mustang v6’s(before they were discontinued) that outperform older gen GT’s. Automotive progress at hand. Ford actually bench marked the ‘15 GT PP against the ‘14 Boss 302, and their goal was to beat the Boss around a track, and they succeed, the ‘15 GT PP did in fact put down slightly faster lap times than the previous gen Boss. Ford purposefully made a lower trim car outperform higher trim car in just 1 model year. So it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to outperform or hang with the GT350.

[crysalis_01]

Again, you state that "you guys", alluding that I am one of, are making these claims and statements. By all means show me where I've done this, I use this user name on mustangforums, camaroforums, GMI, FiN, LS1tech, and others.

As to the point of Ford releaseing a better performing car that was cheaper, you may have had a point by quickly devolved it into a appeal to extremes, which is a blatant logical fallacy.

Honestly, I dont see where the issue with the GT PP being quicker that the GT350 is a real issue.I can see you're pushing real hard for this point but I can assure you that GT350's je ne sais quoi is more than enough to keep demand up for it in this most likely last production year for it.

You don't have to agree with that, you don't have to understand that, but I believe that even you can.

Another quick point; the mentality that if you're not in 1st place...your in last place is rediculous. There are now and always have been shades of grey. Is Mustang a better performer than Camaro in every metric? No. Does it deliver performance that pleases the bulk of those who want one? I would say yes. These cars deliver such performance that even at 7/10 its beyond most amateurs ability. Remember that we the enthusiasts are the minority. These companies can assuredly make vehicles atuned directly to us. But that my limit the cars overall appeal. Can they ignore us completely? Sure, but then you incite the loud minority. So splitting the difference is just good business.


But I digress.,

I can't wait to see what the future brings for this segment...all of it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

What you’re saying isn’t exactly true. Every year a new performance car comes out, it improves when changes are implemented. That’s automotive progress. Just because the GT350/350R are the current halo mustangs, doesn’t mean lesser trim mustangs will never surpass old gen halo car performance. For example, you have current mustang v6’s(before they were discontinued) that outperform older gen GT’s. Automotive progress at hand. Ford actually bench marked the ‘15 GT PP against the ‘14 Boss 302, and their goal was to beat the Boss around a track, and they succeed, the ‘15 GT PP did in fact put down slightly faster lap times than the previous gen Boss. Ford purposefully made a lower trim car outperform higher trim car in just 1 model year. So it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to outperform or hang with the GT350.

I'll ask the question again. If the EB Mustang was faster than the GT, do you really think the Mustang faithful would be completely fine with that?

[MazzaBL]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'll ask the question again. If the EB Mustang was faster than the GT, do you really think the Mustang faithful would be completely fine with that?

Is that the case? Is the eb faster than the GT? You’re speaking hypothetically and I listed real world examples of automotive progress which is the point you seem to be missing. You feel that just because a car has a Shelby badge on the back that all lesser trim mustangs will forever be stunted performance wise and never allowed to surpass gt350 performance. I also don’t feel Ford is worried about the GT effecting Shelby sales, as the Shelby name alone will sell cars. Why do you think dealers are able to add such drastic mark ups and still sell the cars? You don’t see them trying that with gt’s.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

What you’re saying isn’t exactly true. Every year a new performance car comes out, it improves when changes are implemented. That’s automotive progress. Just because the GT350/350R are the current halo mustangs, doesn’t mean lesser trim mustangs will never surpass old gen halo car performance. For example, you have current mustang v6’s(before they were discontinued) that outperform older gen GT’s. Automotive progress at hand. Ford actually bench marked the ‘15 GT PP against the ‘14 Boss 302, and their goal was to beat the Boss around a track, and they succeed, the ‘15 GT PP did in fact put down slightly faster lap times than the previous gen Boss. Ford purposefully made a lower trim car outperform higher trim car in just 1 model year. So it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to outperform or hang with the GT350.

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I think what gets lost in these threads within all of these performance metrics is driving experience, pride in ownership, and respect. Lets take the 14/15 Z28 vs the 17-1LE, while the 1LE may be faster what car would you rather own and drive. Lets look at the 13-Boss vs the 15+ GT while the GT maybe faster around a track what car would you prefer to drive? Finally the 18 GT vs the GT350, if the GT is faster which car would you prefer to be driving?

I think I know my answers to all the above.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

What you’re saying isn’t exactly true. Every year a new performance car comes out, it improves when changes are implemented. That’s automotive progress. Just because the GT350/350R are the current halo mustangs, doesn’t mean lesser trim mustangs will never surpass old gen halo car performance. For example, you have current mustang v6’s(before they were discontinued) that outperform older gen GT’s. Automotive progress at hand. Ford actually bench marked the ‘15 GT PP against the ‘14 Boss 302, and their goal was to beat the Boss around a track, and they succeed, the ‘15 GT PP did in fact put down slightly faster lap times than the previous gen Boss. Ford purposefully made a lower trim car outperform higher trim car in just 1 model year. So it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to outperform or hang with the GT350.

The problem with your analogy it that the current examples aren't separated by generations. They are current production. So in your example, is the GTPP the new halo?

The correct view IMO is that the GT350 isn't a drag car and it will most certainly beat either level performance package around a track. What an awkward moment for Ford if the GT350 failed at that and such a pity that the SS-1LE never got a shot. The GT350 matchups have been deliberately lame IMO, as is the upcoming H2H because it isn't a level 2.

[MazzaBL]

Originally Posted by newmoon

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think what gets lost in these threads within all of these performance metrics is driving experience, pride in ownership, and respect. Lets take the 14/15 Z28 vs the 17-1LE, while the 1LE may be faster what car would you rather own and drive. Lets look at the 13-Boss vs the 15+ GT while the GT maybe faster around a track what car would you prefer to drive? Finally the 18 GT vs the GT350, if the GT is faster which car would you prefer to be driving?

I think I know my answers to all the above.

I agree. I was actually holding out in hopes that ford would drop an S550 Mach 1 but became impatient and deals were too good on SS 1LE’s.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The problem with your analogy it that the current examples aren't separated by generations. They are current production. So in your example, is the GTPP the new halo?

The correct view IMO is that the GT350 isn't a drag car and it will most certainly beat either level performance package around a track. What an awkward moment for Ford if the GT350 failed at that and such a pity that the SS-1LE never got a shot. The GT350 matchups have been deliberately lame IMO, as is the upcoming H2H because it isn't a level 2.

Fair enough. The ‘15-‘17 GT’s are so far behind the competition that ford had to implement changes to the 5.0 to make it competitive. Those changes just happen to make it faster than the Shelby in a straight line. Why would they invest money in R&D just to have the new car still underperform when stacked up against the competition, all in the sake of keeping it slower in a straight line than the Shelby? Which as you pointed out isn’t meant to be a straight line car anyway. My whole point is that it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to be quicker than the Shelby in a straight line, which some people are in denial about.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

Is that the case? Is the eb faster than the GT? You’re speaking hypothetically and I listed real world examples of automotive progress which is the point you seem to be missing. You feel that just because a car has a Shelby badge on the back that all lesser trim mustangs will forever be stunted performance wise and never allowed to surpass gt350 performance. I also don’t feel Ford is worried about the GT effecting Shelby sales, as the Shelby name alone will sell cars. Why do you think dealers are able to add such drastic mark ups and still sell the cars? You don’t see them trying that with gt’s.

Answer the question.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The problem with your analogy it that the current examples aren't separated by generations. They are current production. So in your example, is the GTPP the new halo?

They're intentionally avoiding the question because it proves my point. Although again I will express my doubts that the GT will actually be faster than the Shelby. The only reason these guys want it to be is because they think it'll likewise be faster than the SS. But I still doubt it.

Originally Posted by hotlap

The correct view IMO is that the GT350 isn't a drag car and it will most certainly beat either level performance package around a track. What an awkward moment for Ford if the GT350 failed at that and such a pity that the SS-1LE never got a shot. The GT350 matchups have been deliberately lame IMO, as is the upcoming H2H because it isn't a level 2.

I agree that the Shelby isn't a drag car. But it is still Ford's flagship Mustang at this current time. And never has a GT outperformed any higher level trim on any performance measurement in the same year and same Generation...that I know of. Neither has Chevy ever done this with the lower tier Camaros.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

I agree. I was actually holding out in hopes that ford would drop an S550 Mach 1 but became impatient and deals were too good on SS 1LE’s.



Fair enough. The ‘15-‘17 GT’s are so far behind the competition that ford had to implement changes to the 5.0 to make it competitive. Those changes just happen to make it faster than the Shelby in a straight line. Why would they invest money in R&D just to have the new car still underperform when stacked up against the competition, all in the sake of keeping it slower in a straight line than the Shelby? Which as you pointed out isn’t meant to be a straight line car anyway. My whole point is that it’s not unreasonable for the ‘18 GT to be quicker than the Shelby in a straight line, which some people are in denial about.

I'm in denial because I don't agree with you? Then you're in denial as well. Because I'll say it again, no GT has ever been faster than a top tier Mustang at least in the past 24 years. So is it denial to go off of what the past has shown us in looking at what will happen between the 18 GT and GT350? Nope. It is more likely that I'm right and you aren't. This isn't the norm nor has it been. If it is faster then it is a new thing that Ford has done.

Originally Posted by MazzaBL

Those changes just happen to make it faster than the Shelby in a straight line.

Correction. So far it has not shown itself to actually be faster in a straight line. It was edged out by the GT350 in a rolling start 1/2 mile race.