[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

For street cars, yes, AWD is the most consistent at accelerating for obvious reasons...AWD and Auto/DCT are boring (I own AWD vehicles, and have driven DCT as a disclaimer).

For drag racing, pick your poison. Plenty of LS and Ford powered cars have been faster than the fastest GTRs - and funny that most of the fastest GTRs in drag racing ditch the front diff.

If you're talking about modded cars then that isn't even something to debate. That just goes to whoever has more money to do more mods. So your point is a bit invalid. As far as ditching the front diff, again, you're talking about modded cars. So that argument holds no weight. At the point where cars are going that fast they are soo modded that you can't even really call them "Camaros" or "Mustangs" or "GTRs" anymore. Out the box and up to moderate modifications the GTR is at the top of the food chain.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

For road course, the 505hp 5th gen Z/28 was faster on a cool and damp track than the GTR (same day/driver, etc). Cool and damp favors AWD, not the Camaro as well. Food for thought.

Before Neanderthal comments - I have NOTHING against a GM AWD performance car, just call it something other than a Camaro or Corvette please and thanks.

The 5th Gen Z28 did manage to pull of a win against a GTR. But that was on one track. Some tracks will favor certain engines, setups, and powerplants over another type. And I think that is the only thing that that test proved. Put those two cars on any other track or put them on the Ring and I pretty much will bet you that the GTR will destroy that Z28. That magazine was just them pandering to the GM crowd. But still, if I remember, didn't the GTR have full options and the Z was stripped down? And I believe the Z did have more HP and TQ. So on that particular track it maybe had an advantage. But anywhere else on the planet and the GTR will eat it up.

Originally Posted by rocket403

If the rumors are to be believed Dodge will up the anti with the Angel this will be a 426 ci 900+ hp engine that will take the Challenger or Charger to the next level for 2020 so I wonder if GM or Ford will follow this or that will be the top V8 engine ever.

GM is done with the 6th Gen. The last thing we saw them do, making the A10 available for every trim including the ZLE, is more than likely the last thing they had planned. The 6th Gen Camaro was a success. It forced Ford to re-do the entire Mustang. It forced Dodge to re-do the Hellcat. And all GM had to do later was update the SS and ZLE with the A10. Dodge needs to keep throwing more HP at the Challys because they have no updates in over 10 years and that is all they can do to keep people buying them. Their sales would be nonexistent if it weren't for the Demon and Redeye. And now people are bored with 797 HP even tho it is new. And 840 ain't gonna do the trick because we already saw that. So they need to go 900+. GM on the other hand has a new Gen coming out with new engines and chassis and transmissions etc. We have a 500(+) NA V8 about to hit the streets. There are rumors of Z06s and ZR1s in the 700+ and 800+ (respectively) range coming. And I think they do have an AWD option along with a mid engine. So GM stopped playing with the 6th Gen stuff a long time ago. When the 7th Gen arrives we'll see them once again set the bar for the competition and then move on as is their MO.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Someone much smarter than me has chimed in on the ATP



Thank you Martin. ATP is a great stat to throw around but without the other variables you just don't know.

I have a few products at work, that sell for a high dollar amount and if I gave you the average of what my customers paid for it, it would look really good. Only problem is in order to keep it competitive with my competition I have had to slice my margins razor thin on said product. And yes there are other products I have that I sell for a high price that have fantastic margins. The point is no one but me knows that other information so it's not a great indicator of profitability.

Only thing that matters is for right now, like Blaq said they are making enough on them to keep making them, and making them right




I don't think the GT350R time is "official" just a bunch of rumored times. I would stick with tracks we know it has an official time at like Laguna or VIR

So you will say that when it comes to ATP without other variables, you just don't know...yet you continue to harp on sales without other variables. It seems that you're picking and choosing what you wanna believe is or isn't enough info. Because your statement about ATP is exactly what I have been saying about sales for the past year and a half. So how is one point of data more sufficient than another point when neither of them provides you with any valuable details?

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

...

... GM on the other hand has a new Gen coming out with new engines and chassis and transmissions etc. We have a 500(+) NA V8 about to hit the streets. There are rumors of Z06s and ZR1s in the 700+ and 800+ (respectively) range coming. And I think they do have an AWD option along with a mid engine. So GM stopped playing with the 6th Gen stuff a long time ago. When the 7th Gen arrives we'll see them once again set the bar for the competition and then move on as is their MO.

It would certainly be exciting to see a seventh generation Camaro that raised the performance bar even higher, while still being an excellent value for the amount of performance! And it wouldn't be so bad if the visibility were a tad improved, LOL.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Emoto

It would certainly be exciting to see a seventh generation Camaro that raised the performance bar even higher, while still being an excellent value for the amount of performance! And it wouldn't be so bad if the visibility were a tad improved, LOL.

GM has established a trend with this current Gen that the Camaro will get the same powerplant as the Vettes. If that is a trend and if it does continue then whatever we see in the next Vette will surely be on our Camaros. And they have a 500ish HP NA planned as well as a DOHC V8 forced induction engine (and other engines too). So we might even see the next SS match the current ZL1...maybe. Depending on weight and other things that GM could throw at it to make up for having less HP. Whatever the case will be the Vette will show us what might be in store and we'd just have to wait a year after that for details. Personally tho, I'll probably be switching over to Vettes!!

At this point even the most diehard fan has to admit that GM needs to do something about visibility and pricing. They got away with it in the 5th Gen. The 6th Gen kinda took a toll even tho I'll argue that they're still doing well enough. But I do not think they'll survive past a 7th Gen if they don't do something drastic. They need to offer lower priced options. They need to offer their dealerships incentives to sell the Camaro which in turn will make the dealerships come down on pricing like the Ford guys do. They need to increase the visibility. And they need a more aggressive advertising campaign. I can't go a day on Facebook without seeing several Challenger advertisements. So GM needs to follow suit. Challengers are being seen and people are buying them. Mustangs are being offered at lower prices and people are buying them. GM isn't doing either of those things and they will suffer if they don't get their act together. It won't matter to me because I'll be in Corvettes, lol!! But it'll still suck if I have to see the Camaro disappear again.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you will say that when it comes to ATP without other variables, you just don't know...yet you continue to harp on sales without other variables. It seems that you're picking and choosing what you wanna believe is or isn't enough info. Because your statement about ATP is exactly what I have been saying about sales for the past year and a half. So how is one point of data more sufficient than another point when neither of them provides you with any valuable details?

I am pretty sure I have been pretty consistent on saying that it is all variable info, and its all very important and with out knowing the profit we will never really know the full story. Yes I have argued against people throwing ATP out there like it's an indicator of profitability because there is to many unknowns.

Also I am not one that constantly brings sales into non sales threads.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So you will say that when it comes to ATP without other variables, you just don't know...yet you continue to harp on sales without other variables. It seems that you're picking and choosing what you wanna believe is or isn't enough info. Because your statement about ATP is exactly what I have been saying about sales for the past year and a half. So how is one point of data more sufficient than another point when neither of them provides you with any valuable details?

Originally Posted by shaffe

Also I am not one that constantly brings sales into non sales threads.

Pretty sure you are confusing shaffe with newmoon.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

GM has established a trend with this current Gen that the Camaro will get the same powerplant as the Vettes. If that is a trend and if it does continue then whatever we see in the next Vette will surely be on our Camaros. And they have a 500ish HP NA planned as well as a DOHC V8 forced induction engine (and other engines too). So we might even see the next SS match the current ZL1...maybe. Depending on weight and other things that GM could throw at it to make up for having less HP. Whatever the case will be the Vette will show us what might be in store and we'd just have to wait a year after that for details. Personally tho, I'll probably be switching over to Vettes!!

At this point even the most diehard fan has to admit that GM needs to do something about visibility and pricing. They got away with it in the 5th Gen. The 6th Gen kinda took a toll even tho I'll argue that they're still doing well enough. But I do not think they'll survive past a 7th Gen if they don't do something drastic. They need to offer lower priced options. They need to offer their dealerships incentives to sell the Camaro which in turn will make the dealerships come down on pricing like the Ford guys do. They need to increase the visibility. And they need a more aggressive advertising campaign. I can't go a day on Facebook without seeing several Challenger advertisements. So GM needs to follow suit. Challengers are being seen and people are buying them. Mustangs are being offered at lower prices and people are buying them. GM isn't doing either of those things and they will suffer if they don't get their act together. It won't matter to me because I'll be in Corvettes, lol!! But it'll still suck if I have to see the Camaro disappear again.

Pretty sure you are spot on here.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

GM has established a trend with this current Gen that the Camaro will get the same powerplant as the Vettes. If that is a trend and if it does continue then whatever we see in the next Vette will surely be on our Camaros. And they have a 500ish HP NA planned as well as a DOHC V8 forced induction engine (and other engines too). So we might even see the next SS match the current ZL1...maybe. Depending on weight and other things that GM could throw at it to make up for having less HP. Whatever the case will be the Vette will show us what might be in store and we'd just have to wait a year after that for details. Personally tho, I'll probably be switching over to Vettes!!

At this point even the most diehard fan has to admit that GM needs to do something about visibility and pricing. They got away with it in the 5th Gen. The 6th Gen kinda took a toll even tho I'll argue that they're still doing well enough. But I do not think they'll survive past a 7th Gen if they don't do something drastic. They need to offer lower priced options. They need to offer their dealerships incentives to sell the Camaro which in turn will make the dealerships come down on pricing like the Ford guys do. They need to increase the visibility. And they need a more aggressive advertising campaign. I can't go a day on Facebook without seeing several Challenger advertisements. So GM needs to follow suit. Challengers are being seen and people are buying them. Mustangs are being offered at lower prices and people are buying them. GM isn't doing either of those things and they will suffer if they don't get their act together. It won't matter to me because I'll be in Corvettes, lol!! But it'll still suck if I have to see the Camaro disappear again.

Did you see the CT5 just was teased before the debut coming up soon? That is the first of the Alpha2 platform, that the 7th Gen Camaro presumably would have. It has a lower belt-line and higher roof than the CTS it replaces. That might be a foreshadowing of the Camaro. It's looking more likely (IMHO) that the visibility issues may be addressed with the 7th Gen.

And I totally agree that the 7th Gen will get whatever engine the base ME Corvette is coming out with (which seems like an 500HP LT2).

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am pretty sure I have been pretty consistent on saying that it is all variable info, and its all very important and with out knowing the profit we will never really know the full story. Yes I have argued against people throwing ATP out there like it's an indicator of profitability because there is to many unknowns.

Also I am not one that constantly brings sales into non sales threads.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Pretty sure you are confusing shaffe with newmoon.

Yea I must have gotten myself mixed up a bit. Sorry shaffe.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by rocket403

If the rumors are to be believed Dodge will up the anti with the Angel this will be a 426 ci 900+ hp engine that will take the Challenger or Charger to the next level for 2020 so I wonder if GM or Ford will follow this or that will be the top V8 engine ever.

Personally I think that Dodge is getting a bit carried away with a 900+hp motor. I'd prefer that they update the chassis or spend some money removing weight out of the existing platform.

While I do love the present Challenger and IMO is the best looking of the big three, it is getting a bit dated.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If you're talking about modded cars then that isn't even something to debate. That just goes to whoever has more money to do more mods. So your point is a bit invalid. As far as ditching the front diff, again, you're talking about modded cars. So that argument holds no weight. At the point where cars are going that fast they are soo modded that you can't even really call them "Camaros" or "Mustangs" or "GTRs" anymore. Out the box and up to moderate modifications the GTR is at the top of the food chain.

It's not invalid - as I clarified street vs drag racing.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The 5th Gen Z28 did manage to pull of a win against a GTR. But that was on one track. Some tracks will favor certain engines, setups, and powerplants over another type. And I think that is the only thing that that test proved. Put those two cars on any other track or put them on the Ring and I pretty much will bet you that the GTR will destroy that Z28. That magazine was just them pandering to the GM crowd. But still, if I remember, didn't the GTR have full options and the Z was stripped down? And I believe the Z did have more HP and TQ. So on that particular track it maybe had an advantage. But anywhere else on the planet and the GTR will eat it up.

I guess you missed the part where I noted the cool and damp track - that favors the GTR's AWD.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Did you see the CT5 just was teased before the debut coming up soon? That is the first of the Alpha2 platform, that the 7th Gen Camaro presumably would have. It has a lower belt-line and higher roof than the CTS it replaces. That might be a foreshadowing of the Camaro. It's looking more likely (IMHO) that the visibility issues may be addressed with the 7th Gen.

And I totally agree that the 7th Gen will get whatever engine the base ME Corvette is coming out with (which seems like an 500HP LT2).

Agreed. I think after the 5th and 6th gen a drastic departure from the current styling is in order. Maybe the beltline won't be as high.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Yea I must have gotten myself mixed up a bit. Sorry shaffe.

Its all good bro!

Originally Posted by newmoon

Personally I think that Dodge is getting a bit carried away with a 900+hp motor. I'd prefer that they update the chassis or spend some money removing weight out of the existing platform.

While I do love the present Challenger and IMO is the best looking of the big three, it is getting a bit dated.

Yeah I mean throwing huge HP is about all they can for the Challenger on it's platform. But really after the Demon it's like ok we have seen gobs of power thrown at this before what else you got.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Personally I think that Dodge is getting a bit carried away with a 900+hp motor. I'd prefer that they update the chassis or spend some money removing weight out of the existing platform.

While I do love the present Challenger and IMO is the best looking of the big three, it is getting a bit dated.

Originally Posted by shaffe

….Yeah I mean throwing huge HP is about all they can for the Challenger on it's platform. But really after the Demon it's like ok we have seen gobs of power thrown at this before what else you got.

Keep in mind this is a very much unsubstantiated rumor. I kinda doubt Dodge could get away with punching Demon owners / investors in the face like that. Especially when it is not needed to bolster their street cred.

[shaffe]

also true ^