[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Smokin15

I know I will get flamed for this but, here goes. The Gen 6 Camaro does not stand out from the crowd of eruo looking cars. I mean, really look at the front of the car and you can see at least a dozen other similar looking cars from other foreign autos. The Camaro needs more than a refresh if they want to sell more. Saying that, I would still buy a Camaro over the competition.

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

Not sure exactly what euro cars you are looking at but please feel free to share a few Pictures.

@Smokin15, I'm also curious which European cars you may have thought of. BMW? Mercedes-Benz? Audi? Aston Martin? I grew up there and have seen most of them, yet there isn't a single one I can think of whose front looks anything like the Camaro. If anything, the Mustang's front with the catfish grille is a very Euro-inspired design.

Personally, I think this style is yawn galore, and the front design is one of the reasons I fell in love with the Camaro.

[AZCamaroFan]

actually the weight of the 6thgen is pretty remarkable given how much more safety has to be packed into cars now and the size of the wheel and tire combo/weight compared to the 4thgen. there's a lot of exotic cars that are no lighter than the Camaro and most are heavier.

[RealG]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Lol you are hilarious. It's a very, very tiny pension, but I am more concerned with GMs long term performance than most here.

And you clearly have missed every point I've tried to make over the past 4 years on the Gen6.

A I have stated clearly and concisely for 4 years, make a GREAT coupe first and then make it a Camaro. GM made the greatest Camaro possible, it's just not a great coupe.

But also read your own words, no Apple is not very interested in selling you a cheaper iPhone. They will but it will not be the best most powerful one available. So don't go "wow, imagine how great sales would be if Apple would be interested in selling me an iPhone 10 for $500".

Everyone on here has stated since sales were clearly low, "if Chevy just had great commercials........". Don't you think GM has at least a slightly better clue about the return on advertising than we do? I only suggest they do simply because Mrs. Nunber 3 was Marketing Mgr for C5 and C6 Corvettes and I do know that GM knows better than we do. Sorry, they do.

It certainly is a lot of words but it doesn’t say anything, so what is your answer to poor sales exactly ? Don’t understand the rambling about iPhones because they are selling great and have several price points. Camaro ZL1 would be the iPhone 10 which is the most expensive model so your analogy makes no sense I’m not asking for $29,000 ZL1. So let’s stay off of the personal attacks and stay on topic and explain exactly what you would do to turn around this sales slump. Like you previously stated advertising is a waste, afordable car is a waste, affordable V8 nobody wants, the car is awesome so exactly what would you do ? . Unfortunately for you we’re talking about cars and not politics. Just saying the other person is wrong It’s not an idea, or help solve the problem in anyway.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by RealG

It certainly is a lot of words but it doesn’t say anything, so what is your answer to poor sales exactly ? Don’t understand the rambling about iPhones because they are selling great and have several price points. Camaro ZL1 would be the iPhone 10 which is the most expensive model so your analogy makes no sense I’m not asking for $29,000 ZL1. So let’s stay off of the personal attacks and stay on topic and explain exactly what you would do to turn around this sales slump. Like you previously stated advertising is a waste, afordable car is a waste, affordable V8 nobody wants, the car is awesome so exactly what would you do ?

How do you know for sure that these cars arent selling right where GM expects them to be?
GM has stated time and time again that they are moving to higher margins of profit per unit over volume thus the big cut in the fleet car world. These arent high volume cars anyhow. Like I said above the challenger didnt ramp up to their level of sales. It's remained pretty flat its entire existence. I think people are expecting to see Gen5 numbers. That just isnt going to happen. The pent up demand is no longer there. All the Mullet heads got one or two. Game over. Back to reality. I think GM realized this and has structured more profit into each car sold over the need for high volume. The Camaro is still leading in sales if you take fleet sales away anyhow. That's awesome for GM.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The gen5 ZL1 was also a big, heavy car. Chevy put the engineering effort into the chassis set up so if could actually handle. The weight, size and heat soak is precisely what moved me to the 16 2SS.

Stats for the gen5 below

Yep, but my main point is that all of these car handle ,drive and perform extremely well and very close together in legal highway use. They dont start showing their differences until they are push well past many normal drivers level of abilities. I believe because of this things like looks, usefulness, comfort and everyday practically often win out over being a couple of tenth faster or 200lbs lighter. These things are where the Challenger pretty much beats both of them. GM screwed up with the gen6 car by listening to a few enthusiasts seeking track perfection if there goal was to be the market leader on a sales chart. I however dont believe that was or is their goal. The Camaro is poised to fill a void that will be there when the mid engine vette comes out and bases at 100Gs.

[RealG]

[QUOTE=motorhead;10102381]How do you know for sure that these cars arent selling right where GM expects them to be?
GM has stated time and time again that they are moving to higher margins of profit per unit over volume thus the big cut in the fleet car world. These arent high volume cars anyhow. Like I said above the challenger didnt ramp up to their level of sales. It's remained pretty flat its entire existence. I think people are expecting to see Gen5 numbers. That just isnt going to happen. The pent up demand is no longer there. All the Mullet heads got one or two. Game over. Back to reality. I think GM realized this and has structured more profit into each car sold over the need for high volume. The Camaro is still leading in sales if you take fleet sales away anyhow. That's awesome for GM.[/QUOTE

Let me explain one basic truth about corporate greed, yes they love maximum profit per vehicle but what’s better than that ? Selling more of them and maximizing your profit per vehicle. Whatever number they sell per month, per year I promise you the shareholders want to sell more. That’s an Indisputable truth if you go to any shareholder and or stockholder meeting it’s universal if you’re making profit you need to sell more. when I start hearing justification for poor sales it scares me because the end is near for the Camaro again. GM could not make the Camaro a fleet car if they tried. Nobody wants that car for rentals , it doesn’t haul any people or luggage and you can’t see out of it and it’s expensive for repairs. These are all the things that make it the opposite of a good rental fleet car. Sure they can rent a few of them to the sports car crowd but that’s small numbers Mustang has that market as well.

[motorhead]

[QUOTE=RealG;10102411]

Originally Posted by motorhead

How do you know for sure that these cars arent selling right where GM expects them to be?
GM has stated time and time again that they are moving to higher margins of profit per unit over volume thus the big cut in the fleet car world. These arent high volume cars anyhow. Like I said above the challenger didnt ramp up to their level of sales. It's remained pretty flat its entire existence. I think people are expecting to see Gen5 numbers. That just isnt going to happen. The pent up demand is no longer there. All the Mullet heads got one or two. Game over. Back to reality. I think GM realized this and has structured more profit into each car sold over the need for high volume. The Camaro is still leading in sales if you take fleet sales away anyhow. That's awesome for GM.[/QUOTE

Let me explain one basic truth about corporate greed, yes they love maximum profit per vehicle but what’s better than that ? Selling more of them and maximizing your profit per vehicle. Whatever number they sell per month per year I promise you the shareholders want to sell more. That’s an Indisputable truth if you go to any shareholder and or stockholder meeting it’s universal if you’re making profit you need to sell more. when I start hearing justification for poor sales it scares me because the end is near for the Camaro again. GM could not make the Camaro a fleet car if they tried ! nobody wants that car for rentals , it doesn’t haul any people or luggage and you can’t see out of it and it’s expensive for repairs. These are all the things that make it the opposite of a good rental fleet car. Sure they can rent a few of them to the sports car crowd but that’s small numbers Mustang has that market as well.

I agree for the most part. In that case, the next to last sentence in my next post is true. GM ruined it for the masses by listening to a few. And, what is icing on the cake about all of this is that even many of those few complain about the gen6 now that it was made they way they wanted it.

[RealG]

General Motors never intended the Camaro to be a low production or low-volume unit the public decided that. When the 6th gen was introduced back to American manufacturing, production expectations and capacity were very high but sales did not meet capacity. The truth is since it’s introduction the 6th gen sales have been very dismal and General Motors biggest problem has been how to deal with this excess capacity at the Camaro plant. Now we all know that the two door coupe market is up-and-down but Lexus introduced two new V8 rear wheel drive couples also plenty of exotics selling and , corvette , mustang especially Challenger sales have been doing fairly well. IMHO history will show that the 6th gen biggest problem was it didn’t look too much different from the 5th gen and doesn’t do one thing excellent , it just doesn’t stand out in the crowd it’s not the cheapest it’s not the fastest it doesn’t have the most horsepower it doesn’t have the most room it’s just kind of there even if it has a excellent drivetrain and excellent performance characteristics it’s just missing the publics heart.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by RealG

...doesn’t do one thing excellent...

I think history will show all the best, and of-the-year awards to counter that point.....

Maybe there's a problem, maybe not...but performance ain't it.

[Herewego]

MC=MR. Just because sales are different to competitors or based on prior years doesn't mean there's a problem.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by MuhThugga

Why do you think the 5.3 weighs more than the 6.2 and can't spin as high?



A lot of people, and hear me out, still like the sound of a V8. So, it isn't always as simple as going fast. Hence why people purchase the 5.7 Hemi instead of the 6.4 and bypass the 4.3 V6 for the 5.3 instead of jumping straight to the 6.2 for their truck.



I mean, yeah. Progress has been made over the past 13 years.



Yeah, and the last time I checked, the 5.3 is a V8.



The question was "How can the Camaro's price be effectively lowered?" My answer is "Offer the 5.3."

I agree that the TTV6 is criminally under-utilized, but do you think that engine is going to actually offer a lower-priced Camaro? You can concern yourself with driving performance forward all you want, but without sales, there is no car, and you'll be reliving those glory days of 2003-2009.

Overall, I think offering the 5.3 would help with sales. However, there are still other inherent issues that can only be fixed with a redesign. Yes, the 6th Gen is a fantastic performance piece, but it sucks as an everyday car. And for a lot of people, they are shopping for an everyday car, and that's where the Mustang and Challenger absolutely outperform the Camaro.



Yes, I have and no, they don't. Are they nimble? No. Do they drive like a truck? No.



So, when they're toddlers?

I don't think there is a need for a lower priced entry level V8 for the Camaro anymore then there should be a lower priced entry level V8 for the Corvette. The Camaro starts at 25k with 275HP and goes up to 63k 650 hp thats a pretty damn good price spread. If someone wants the V8 they have to buck up or move on .

[MuhThugga]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Maybe there's a problem, maybe not...but performance ain't it.

Like I said before: it's great at performance and sucks at everything else.

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

I don't think there is a need for a lower priced entry level V8 for the Camaro anymore then there should be a lower priced entry level V8 for the Corvette. The Camaro starts at 25k with 275HP and goes up to 63k 650 hp thats a pretty damn good price spread. If someone wants the V8 they have to buck up or move on .

And customers have moved on...to the more affordable Mustangs and Challengers with V8s. Why? Because not everyone is looking strictly at horsepower numbers and there are those who would like to simply have a V8.

Drawing a line in the sand doesn't work when there are cheaper alternatives that give people what they want.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by MuhThugga

Like I said before: it's great at performance and sucks at everything else.



And customers have moved on...to the more affordable Mustangs and Challengers with V8s. Why? Because not everyone is looking strictly at horsepower numbers and there are those who would like to simply have a V8.

Drawing a line in the sand doesn't work when there are cheaper alternatives that give people what they want.

Camaro needs to be equally priced or slightly lower in every model category compared to Mustang and Challenger. Camaro is more expensive IE base SS and base GT, or base 4 banger turbo stang vs base 4 banger turbo Camaro. Camaro's are better cars, but money talks especially cars in the 26k to 36k range.

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by MuhThugga

Like I said before: it's great at performance and sucks at everything else.



And customers have moved on...to the more affordable Mustangs and Challengers with V8s. Why? Because not everyone is looking strictly at horsepower numbers and there are those who would like to simply have a V8.

Drawing a line in the sand doesn't work when there are cheaper alternatives that give people what they want.

The I4 and V6 are the bread and butter. A cheaper V8 would maybe increase sales by 200, 500 max. It won't be the holy grail that gets the Camaro back in the 6000-9000 unit range like the 5th gen saw.

Us enthusiasts need to realize that the majority of Mustang/Challenger/Camaro sales are not the V8 models.