[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

While I dont disagree that there are no blind spots you cant seriously think there isnt a visibility issue when looking out the rear 3/4 of the car. The rearview camera does not help that.

And again, Camaro buyers would STILL buy the Camaro if it had better visibility. Yet, it chases away the perspective buyers when they go drive cars in this same class.

The 6th gen will still sell about 85k/year. Why dont we want to see that above 100k?

The Camaro is the Camaro BECAUSE of it's style...sure, people would still buy it if you castrated said design...but people here don't seem to understand how design, engineering, and marketing really works.

First of all, show me data that conclusively shows that more glass will increase sales.

Secondly, raising the roofline enough to make a difference is impossible while maintaining one of the key design elements of the car.

Thirdly, the previously mentioned design element has been evaluated by the professionals in charge of the car's development, and was found to be a desirable trait amongst customers.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Sledgehammer70

If you can't see the 4 lanes behind you... you're simply not adjusting your mirrors or you're to short for this car.

[Modshack]

Originally Posted by crabman

Anyhow I guess I said it. I test drove a C7 and a 1SS on the same day and ended up preferring the Camaro. I would have said it never happens before then and I wouldn't have even tried the Camaro if it were not for the unanimous approval of the road testers about its driving dynamics and fun factor.

As a past pwner of a C7 I understand your point. The Camaro has a good number of redeeming values that can make it the preferred choice. I loved my C7, I find the Camaro it's equal in many ways, and superior in many others..(for me anyway)

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

The Camaro is the Camaro BECAUSE of it's style...sure, people would still buy it if you castrated said design...but people here don't seem to understand how design, engineering, and marketing really works.

First of all, show me data that conclusively shows that more glass will increase sales.

Secondly, raising the roofline enough to make a difference is impossible while maintaining one of the key design elements of the car.

Thirdly, the previously mentioned design element has been evaluated by the professionals in charge of the car's development, and was found to be a desirable trait amongst customers.

That's all but impossible but.....the Mustang is selling a LOT more lower level engines than the Camaro and that wont change. Not even close. *Yes, I know the T4 Camaro is just hitting the lots. Yes, I know it will sell. No, it will not allow the Camaro to outsell the Mustang.

Castrated? Seems like you think adding a slight improvement to the car would destroy the look. That's completely the wrong way to think about it. You can EASILY keep the look. Again, the roofline is not the problem. It's the beltline. Yes, lowering the beltline would "raise" the roof but having the hips and fenders lower will effectively lower the car as well. That trade off could've happened easy enough.

Look, it is not about those buying the Camaro but those who ARENT. You HAVE to get new customers.


The marketing is zilch right now. GM is so behind the ball its funny. They have to sell the car and they have to sell that it's not bad in the visibility department. GM has 6 years of "bad visibility" to overcome and the 6th gen did nothing to improve upon that.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

That's all but impossible but.....

Then why do you and others continue to claim so certainly that watering down the design to add more glass will result in dramatically increased sales? Does anyone have survey data, or even trend data to suggest this? Any experience in the field to backup the confidence?

Originally Posted by bballr4567

.....the Mustang is selling a LOT more lower level engines than the Camaro and that wont change. Not even close. *Yes, I know the T4 Camaro is just hitting the lots. Yes, I know it will sell. No, it will not allow the Camaro to outsell the Mustang.

This isn't about the Mustang. However, I will make a couple notes in response...

The last generation of these cars does not support this newly anointed crusade for visibility. The situation was the same in terms of design: The Camaro had "horrible" visibility, and the Mustang was considered to be moderately better. However...the Camaro consistently outsold the Mustang all 5 years they competed.

While some people undoubtedly are turned off by the view out of the driver's seat; logic and reasoning suggests that something ELSE is affecting the sales this generation, NOT a concern over visibility.

Such things might include: dramatic fleet sales, dramatic discounts, lower base-model MSRPs. Because we know performance isn't the attraction......

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Castrated? Seems like you think adding a slight improvement to the car would destroy the look. That's completely the wrong way to think about it. You can EASILY keep the look. Again, the roofline is not the problem. It's the beltline. Yes, lowering the beltline would "raise" the roof but having the hips and fenders lower will effectively lower the car as well. That trade off could've happened easy enough.

They've tried all of this. Don't assume they aren't experts in their field. Lowering the belt line becomes slightly difficult because of front suspension geometry, firewall design, and side-impact safety standards. Only the designers and engineers know how far they could lower it. It might be possible, but calling it "easy" is an assumption you cannot make.

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Look, it is not about those buying the Camaro but those who ARENT. You HAVE to get new customers.

Absolutely right. And they leveraged their current customers, the ones who were making the car the best-selling car in its class last generation, to find out what their favorite features were. What is the car's appeal? Overwhelmingly, as in 2006, the response was the design (among other things).

Originally Posted by bballr4567

The marketing is zilch right now. GM is so behind the ball its funny. They have to sell the car and they have to sell that it's not bad in the visibility department. GM has 6 years of "bad visibility" to overcome and the 6th gen did nothing to improve upon that.

I agree with you that marketing and advertisement could be better. But not for visibility. You're not going to attract people to showrooms by talking about the car's windows.

[meb91]

In terms of safety the visibility is a non-issue. I can see all the cars around me no problem.

If you just prefer something with larger windows, it's an aesthetic opinion and you should buy a different car (like a sedan.) I've sat in Mustangs, Challengers, Corvettes, etc. and visibility is not much different from the Camaro in any of them.

A sports car/2 door coupe having small windows is not a design failure, it's a design choice. It would only be a failure if it prevented safe operation of the car, and it does not (or else we would have all crashed our cars by now)

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Look, it is not about those buying the Camaro but those who ARENT. You HAVE to get new customers.

Any person interested in a camaro just needs a salesman who knows how to work the seat adjuster and mirrors so that the short test-drive time a buyer has with the car proves that visibility is not as scary as random reviewers have made out the 5th gen to be. I have no problem seeing compared to any other camaro i've had and their windows were twice as large.

Chevy is interested in poaching mustang and charger, maybe even some imports now that they're basically abandoning the performance market for SUV's. But they're not looking to dilute it to the point that compromises the brand as they see it.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I agree with you that marketing and advertisement could be better. But not for visibility. You're not going to attract people to showrooms by talking about the car's windows.

Nope, but you sure can scare them out of the showroom showing them the 10" side windows. There are people who literally wont even drive the car once they sit in it. Why? Visibility.

The side profile of the car is a CHOICE. It could be changed and it wasnt. That was GMs choice. They have to live with it.

It still goes to show that the Camaro will get around 80-85k sales this year in the US while the Mustang will garner some 120-125k. Best selling car in its class last generation has a great ring to it. Why not best selling sports car?



At the end of the day visibility is compromised by the design. You literally cant deny that. That doesnt mean that you cant see out of the car or that its a fail but that GM made a conscious decision to alienate potential buyers by targeting customers it already had. Pretending its not an issue to brand new customers is taking an head in the sand approach.

[Whis]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Then why do you and others continue to claim so certainly that watering down the design to add more glass will result in dramatically increased sales? Does anyone have survey data, or even trend data to suggest this? Any experience in the field to backup the confidence?

What he doesn't know is a company like GM doesn't move on a decision that big without metrics(especially given their... history) which they gathered.

Wish more people here understood high level PMing, metrics gathering, etc. Good post

[Whis]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

At the end of the day visibility is compromised by the design. You literally cant deny that. That doesnt mean that you cant see out of the car or that its a fail but that GM made a conscious decision to alienate potential buyers by targeting customers it already had. Pretending its not an issue to brand new customers is taking an head in the sand approach.

I agree but at the same time your other stuff is irrelevant. They definitely gathered data to support the decision from a business perspective

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by Whis

I agree but at the same time your other stuff is irrelevant. They definitely gathered data to support the decision from a business perspective

Exactly. They knew they could retain Camaro purist. Nothing wrong with that.


However, you have to take a risk to gain customers. Will the Camaro gain the 37% YoY gains the Mustang had going from 5th to 6th generations? Nope. They didnt risk enough of the biscuit.

Originally Posted by Whis

What he doesn't know is a company like GM doesn't move on a decision that big without metrics(especially given their... history) which they gathered.

Wish more people here understood high level PMing, metrics gathering, etc. Good post

You know what they say about assuming....

[Blmfdhawk2]

I Came from a 2102 Challenger R/T and I have no issue with visibility in my 2SS...so they are attracting new customers! Love thus car...

[Quiksilver16ss]

Guess all these people who says it's a cramped up car and whining about the inside of a gen 6 camaro have no chance at being a NASCAR sprint cup driver. "Help I can't see out the car get me out of here!!" ������

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by bballr4567

You know what they say about assuming....

You could say that about every comment on this thread basically, so what's the point here?

Unless you've done your own market research or were part of the team at GM that did or the design team, you're just making opinions and assumptions.

Welcome to forums. It makes up about 90% of the posts and usually the actual main purpose of a forum.