[hotlap]

I mean... if they can't do it ...that's ...ok. At least they admit it. In my book, that counts for something.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If GM pulled this crap with the ZR1 or Z06 I would not try to defend them. But that is why Ford will always be mediocre. Because they'll pull their punches, put out some lame shit, charge more for it, then the dealers will mark it up, and they know their fans will still eat it up and defend them when they don't put coolers on it or when it catches fire or when it consumes a quart of oil every 500 miles or when it can't go as fast as the competition despite costing much more. The GT500 is nothing more than a rush job and it is becoming obvious. Ford bragged that the 13--14s could go 200 despite them never going that fast. But they bragged about it. Now 6 years later they're talking about "where are you gonna go that fast anyway?". Sheesh. Soo pathetic.

You have a very short memory. The SS 1LE was spanked in top end pulls like 25 times in a row compared to the GT PP. Is the SS really that slow or did Chevy limit the top end?

[shaffe]

Damn Blaq who pissed in your cheerios this morning lol.

All I am saying is I don't care that they capped the top speed at 180. As an enthusiast if I was buying a GT500 I would want it to be awesome in the venues I could take it to. And none of those venues would I be able to get close to 180 so top speed doesn't really bother me. Now maybe its because I almost got caught street racing many years ago but since then I have always been a take it to the track kind of guy, and especially since I raced competitively in stuff other than just test n tune I have been a did I get the win light. That is just me personally, I am sure there are more like you that like being able to say it can do 200 MPH. All I am saying is me personally not a big deal that the car is limited to 180

BUT

Its the WHY is it capped at 180 that I would be more interested/concerned with. If it is because it can't handle it or its not stable at speeds that high than that would be really concerning and would make me think twice about how well engineered the car is. Did they cut corners? Did they not do this or that. that is what I would be more worried about other than what the top speed is. Now I am not going to be like some here and just say its cause it won't be stable or it will be unsafe or whatever (given ford recent history you may very well be right). I guess that part we will find out once someone unlocks the ECU.

I do find it humorous though that in the ZL1 section of the site there was quite a few who agreed about top speed: who cares. ( and yes there were a few that were against speed limiters/its a ford fail)

Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND

Bar talk really. I’m good at about 165 mph.

Originally Posted by nicktechla

exactly

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

Those are death wish speeds anyway.

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

For me, I could care less. My 2013 ZL1 convertible is limited by GM at 155 or so I believe.

Yes I have tracked the car as a beginner, both a few road courses as will as the local drag strip and have never even come close to reaching the maximum.

I imagine if I were serious about top speed, I'd probably already have done a tune at some point, and whatever limiter it may have had by the factory could be bypassed/eliminated with the tune.

On the other hand, having a factory limit just 'MIGHT' save some newbie that bought such a car and immediately turns all the nanny's off to see just what she'll do.

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Physically, I don't think the 180 MPH limit is a big deal. I've never gone that fast in a street car or track car for that matter and though I've gotten somewhat close, the vehicles that I did would get there VERY quickly (1000 rwhp+ Corvettes). For a stock ZL1 or GT500 to get to 180, you have to be in it for a while. Sure, it's not slow but the aero and weight start to hurt the faster and faster you go. Even if you had a McLaren 720S, 180 MPH would take a scary amount of distance to get to without being seen by a LEO. Would a stock GT500 even do 180 MPH in a standing mile race? Reason I ask is that's the longest legal distance I'm aware of short of road rentals and the Autobahn etc.

Now, mentally, it doesn't sound cool to be the guy with the governed vehicle. But most mustangs are modified so I'm sure the speed limit will be the first thing to be tuned out. Probably won't be that big of a deal.

Originally Posted by mlee

This 180 thing means absolutely nothing. So what if a Camaro goes 200 ungoverned.

I hate it when someone asks how fast your car will go. That's when you know they have no clue.

It's my guess they based this limit on one mile. No one runs more than that anyway and if they do the car is no longer limited.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You have a very short memory. The SS 1LE was spanked in top end pulls like 25 times in a row compared to the GT PP. Is the SS really that slow or did Chevy limit the top end?

Right. Did we make excuses? Did GM say "oh well nobody is going to drive that fast"? No. If anything the Mustang should be faster than the Camaro at higher speeds considering it is a DOHC engine which favors top end power vs the OHV engines. The Mustang also has more HP. So it beat the SS as well it should. Cool. Nobody here cried or complained or made excuses. So what's your point??

Besides the discussion isn't even about the GT racing on a dirt road. It's about the GT500 vs the ZL1 and how the GT500 is the only car of that caliber that is incapable of 200+ MPH.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Damn Blaq who pissed in your cheerios this morning lol.

All I am saying is I don't care that they capped the top speed at 180. As an enthusiast if I was buying a GT500 I would want it to be awesome in the venues I could take it to. And none of those venues would I be able to get close to 180 so top speed doesn't really bother me. Now maybe its because I almost got caught street racing many years ago but since then I have always been a take it to the track kind of guy, and especially since I raced competitively in stuff other than just test n tune I have been a did I get the win light. That is just me personally, I am sure there are more like you that like being able to say it can do 200 MPH. All I am saying is me personally not a big deal that the car is limited to 180

BUT

Its the WHY is it capped at 180 that I would be more interested/concerned with. If it is because it can't handle it or its not stable at speeds that high than that would be really concerning and would make me think twice about how well engineered the car is. Did they cut corners? Did they not do this or that. that is what I would be more worried about other than what the top speed is. Now I am not going to be like some here and just say its cause it won't be stable or it will be unsafe or whatever (given ford recent history you may very well be right). I guess that part we will find out once someone unlocks the ECU.

I do find it humorous though that in the ZL1 section of the site there was quite a few who agreed about top speed: who cares. ( and yes there were a few that were against speed limiters/its a ford fail)

I get what you're saying. But my point is that the rationalization about what a car needs or how fast you can really go have no place in an enthusiast's sport. That is just an excuse. If Ford had said that in order to make the car handle better they had to build it in such a way that it is not going to be stable at higher speeds and so they capped it at 180 MPH then we all could accept that. Even tho that isn't the case with the ZLE I still think we would respect that...even if we did make fun of it. But they made no mention of that. So I speculate that the GT500 will not beat the ZLE or the ZL1 around a track and it is capped at 180 MPH because it isn't stable. I reckon that a car that is stable at 202 MPH, like the ZL1 will out corner a car that is capped at 180 MPH even when taking turns at slower speeds. If the GT500 manages to pull off a win around the track against the ZL1, then it will have to outmuscle it on the straights and hope to give up minimal ground around the corners. I also reckon that any chance of beating the ZLE around a track are gone. So that, to me, just leaves the straight line performance against the Redeye. And I think the GT500 will have it's hands full there too.

I'll say it again, I think Ford got spread too thin this Gen and had to rush the GT500 along. I think it is underdeveloped and they had to make do with what they had with the little time they had. And I'll add that nobody now can doubt GM engineering when it comes to how well the Camaro has been this Gen.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right. Did we make excuses? Did GM say "oh well nobody is going to drive that fast"? No. If anything the Mustang should be faster than the Camaro at higher speeds considering it is a DOHC engine which favors top end power vs the OHV engines. The Mustang also has more HP. So it beat the SS as well it should. Cool. Nobody here cried or complained or made excuses. So what's your point??

Besides the discussion isn't even about the GT racing on a dirt road. It's about the GT500 vs the ZL1 and how the GT500 is the only car of that caliber that is incapable of 200+ MPH.


I get what you're saying. But my point is that the rationalization about what a car needs or how fast you can really go have no place in an enthusiast's sport. That is just an excuse. If Ford had said that in order to make the car handle better they had to build it in such a way that it is not going to be stable at higher speeds and so they capped it at 180 MPH then we all could accept that. Even tho that isn't the case with the ZLE I still think we would respect that...even if we did make fun of it. But they made no mention of that. So I speculate that the GT500 will not beat the ZLE or the ZL1 around a track and it is capped at 180 MPH because it isn't stable. I reckon that a car that is stable at 202 MPH, like the ZL1 will out corner a car that is capped at 180 MPH even when taking turns at slower speeds. If the GT500 manages to pull off a win around the track against the ZL1, then it will have to outmuscle it on the straights and hope to give up minimal ground around the corners. I also reckon that any chance of beating the ZLE around a track are gone. So that, to me, just leaves the straight line performance against the Redeye. And I think the GT500 will have it's hands full there too.

I'll say it again, I think Ford got spread too thin this Gen and had to rush the GT500 along. I think it is underdeveloped and they had to make do with what they had with the little time they had. And I'll add that nobody now can doubt GM engineering when it comes to how well the Camaro has been this Gen.

I get where you are coming from as well. The "clearest" answer we have is from the Jalopnik article where they basically said the build the car the best we could we didn't hit 180 in testing so we capped it there.

That to me makes me wonder if they just flat capped it at 180 bc they don't want the base GT500 having a higher top speed than the Track pack (which would be a dumb reason IMO)

I can't/won't speculate on the stability because I don't know enough about what goes into it to say. You might be right. I guess we will see when it finally comes out

I'll just stand by and stick with the top speed is overrated lol I mean Greg Maddux didn't have a flamethrower for an arm and he was one of the best pitchers ever. Jay Cutler and Rex Grossman both had cannons for arms but I don't think anyone would consider them great or even good haha

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I do find it humorous though that in the ZL1 section of the site there was quite a few who agreed about top speed: who cares. ( and yes there were a few that were against speed limiters/its a ford fail)

Be honest, is the same debate going on over on M6? Because I see a lot of the Mustang guys in some of the ZL1 and Hellcat groups I'm on debating it back and forth.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I get where you are coming from as well. The "clearest" answer we have is from the Jalopnik article where they basically said the build the car the best we could we didn't hit 180 in testing so we capped it there.

That to me makes me wonder if they just flat capped it at 180 bc they don't want the base GT500 having a higher top speed than the Track pack (which would be a dumb reason IMO)

I can't/won't speculate on the stability because I don't know enough about what goes into it to say. You might be right. I guess we will see when it finally comes out

I'll just stand by and stick with the top speed is overrated lol I mean Greg Maddux didn't have a flamethrower for an arm and he was one of the best pitchers ever. Jay Cutler and Rex Grossman both had cannons for arms but I don't think anyone would consider them great or even good haha

None of their reasoning for why it is capped makes any sense. First they mentioned tires. Yet GM had tires specifically made for the ZL1s and they are not only capable of extreme track use but can also handle top speed marches. They mentioned the suspension but again, doesn't make sense. We clearly see the ZLE and what it is capable of. If they use the suspension excuse then there will be no excuse if it cannot beat the ZLE BTW. Then they question who can drive it that fast anywhere. I'm telling you it is not that difficult to reach those speeds safely. Especially in cars as powerful as these. So none of their reasoning makes any sense at all. And it sounds like they had issues, ran out of time, or the cost to build it to go that fast on top of the other costs they had to put into it would have made it too expensive.

Does a 200 MPH top speed in and of itself matter? Well to me it does. But I'll say it isn't the end all say all. However when you have a car like the GT500 which is the halo, and then you have it MIA for 6 years, and then you build all this hype around it for over a year, and then you make statements about it's performance and how it'll beat the Demon at this and the ZL1 at that, and then you hold info from the public as long as possible, and the first thing people find out is that the car is capped at 180 MPH for no logical reason, then yes it does all matter. But for now all we can do is wait to see what else is going on with this car.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You have a very short memory. The SS 1LE was spanked in top end pulls like 25 times in a row compared to the GT PP. Is the SS really that slow or did Chevy limit the top end?

Are you seriously coming into this discussion with this?

1.) The 1LE is aero limited (even the ZL1 is faster than the ZL1 1LE due to its aero)

2.) The 1LE cars are NOT setup for drag racing

3.) The GT PP was a 10 spd auto using drag mode of all things

4.) Something that has repeatedly been mentioned is that the M6 basically taps out due to shifting into 5th gear, which is essentially overdrive...

But what is funny...is that they had to run a mile in a straight line for the Mustang to win something...

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Be honest, is the same debate going on over on M6? Because I see a lot of the Mustang guys in some of the ZL1 and Hellcat groups I'm on debating it back and forth.

None of their reasoning for why it is capped makes any sense. First they mentioned tires. Yet GM had tires specifically made for the ZL1s and they are not only capable of extreme track use but can also handle top speed marches. They mentioned the suspension but again, doesn't make sense. We clearly see the ZLE and what it is capable of. If they use the suspension excuse then there will be no excuse if it cannot beat the ZLE BTW. Then they question who can drive it that fast anywhere. I'm telling you it is not that difficult to reach those speeds safely. Especially in cars as powerful as these. So none of their reasoning makes any sense at all. And it sounds like they had issues, ran out of time, or the cost to build it to go that fast on top of the other costs they had to put into it would have made it too expensive.

Does a 200 MPH top speed in and of itself matter? Well to me it does. But I'll say it isn't the end all say all. However when you have a car like the GT500 which is the halo, and then you have it MIA for 6 years, and then you build all this hype around it for over a year, and then you make statements about it's performance and how it'll beat the Demon at this and the ZL1 at that, and then you hold info from the public as long as possible, and the first thing people find out is that the car is capped at 180 MPH for no logical reason, then yes it does all matter. But for now all we can do is wait to see what else is going on with this car.

I completely agree. All I see with this is something that smells, or more to the point, something that they can slap a name on to sell. If it truly is limited to 180 mph, then I highly doubt that the GT 500 will beat the ZL1 1LE at the Ring. It may unseat it on a few, shorter tracks due to the extra HP, but I doubt it will be something to write home about.

Still, I will give Ford props for at least producing a very good looking GT500. It is a very visually appealing car and it sounds fantastic. But, considering what you'll pay for it, I'd rather have had the Demon...or a Hellcat Redeye..

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

I completely agree. All I see with this is something that smells, or more to the point, something that they can slap a name on to sell. If it truly is limited to 180 mph, then I highly doubt that the GT 500 will beat the ZL1 1LE at the Ring. It may unseat it on a few, shorter tracks due to the extra HP, but I doubt it will be something to write home about.

Still, I will give Ford props for at least producing a very good looking GT500. It is a very visually appealing car and it sounds fantastic. But, considering what you'll pay for it, I'd rather have had the Demon...or a Hellcat Redeye..

Ford say that They won't look for track times, and now they say the car is limited to 180 mph... Mmmmm

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Be honest, is the same debate going on over on M6? Because I see a lot of the Mustang guys in some of the ZL1 and Hellcat groups I'm on debating it back and forth.

None of their reasoning for why it is capped makes any sense. First they mentioned tires. Yet GM had tires specifically made for the ZL1s and they are not only capable of extreme track use but can also handle top speed marches. They mentioned the suspension but again, doesn't make sense. We clearly see the ZLE and what it is capable of. If they use the suspension excuse then there will be no excuse if it cannot beat the ZLE BTW. Then they question who can drive it that fast anywhere. I'm telling you it is not that difficult to reach those speeds safely. Especially in cars as powerful as these. So none of their reasoning makes any sense at all. And it sounds like they had issues, ran out of time, or the cost to build it to go that fast on top of the other costs they had to put into it would have made it too expensive.

Does a 200 MPH top speed in and of itself matter? Well to me it does. But I'll say it isn't the end all say all. However when you have a car like the GT500 which is the halo, and then you have it MIA for 6 years, and then you build all this hype around it for over a year, and then you make statements about it's performance and how it'll beat the Demon at this and the ZL1 at that, and then you hold info from the public as long as possible, and the first thing people find out is that the car is capped at 180 MPH for no logical reason, then yes it does all matter. But for now all we can do is wait to see what else is going on with this car.

From glancing over at 6G, there were some that were mad, some that didn't care but the majority wanted to know WHY.

Since tone is hard to decipher on forums, none of this is to come of as hostile/aggressive lol.

Who mentioned tires? I am asking becuase I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere other than over at 6G. I didn't see it mentioned in the C&D article or the jalopnik article. Who mentioned the suspension? I am legit asking because I haven't seen anything from Ford that mentioned those things. the closest I saw to that was that they want the car to excel at the strip and track.

And lets just put this in hypotheticals since the car isn't out yet, if it beats all the cars its supposed to on the strip and the track would you still call it a failure because it doesn't have the fastest top speed? That sounds like a middle school argument if you ask me.

Some of the courses people love to talk times about the most here:

Ring
VIR
Laguna Seca

None of those course did the ZLE hit 180, closest it came is 173 IIRC on the ring and the regular ZL1 hit 181. At VIR I think the top speed hit was like 145, and maybe 125-130 on Laguna.

Stock ZL1 at a standing mile hit 174, stock hellcat also hit 174 and a demon hit 181. (Times pulled from texas mile youtube, cars are listed as stock)


So if it's legit that they didn't hit 180 while chasing their goals and in testing so they just capped it at 180 that is fine with me.


BUT if its like you are guessing, that they cut corners or its not stable past 180 then yeah I would be concerned a little. Again, I am more interested concerned in the WHY than the actual cap.

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

Ford say that They won't look for track times, and now they say the car is limited to 180 mph... Mmmmm

They never have, I don't know why people are still surprised by this or think it has an ulterior motive. They never have or at least I can't recal anytime Ford themselves went out and posted lap times or performance times like GM or Dodge. They have always let third paryt testing do it

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Are you seriously coming into this discussion with this?

1.) The 1LE is aero limited (even the ZL1 is faster than the ZL1 1LE due to its aero)

2.) The 1LE cars are NOT setup for drag racing

3.) The GT PP was a 10 spd auto using drag mode of all things

4.) Something that has repeatedly been mentioned is that the M6 basically taps out due to shifting into 5th gear, which is essentially overdrive...

But what is funny...is that they had to run a mile in a straight line for the Mustang to win something...

The video clearly shows the GT is a M6, not the A10. I hate how that video is edited. Just show the race, don't splice in every view when they are tied. Lame. And every mag test has shown the A10 GT beating every SS in acceleration, regardless of trans.-so it doesn't take a mile for the GT to win. The A10 SS got the closest- 12.1 vs 12.2 per Car and Driver, and the GT trapped +2 mph (120 vs 118 mph). Anyway, this shouldn't have even been brought up considering this is a GT500 vs ZL1 thread.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The video clearly shows the GT is a M6, not the A10. I hate how that video is edited. Just show the race, don't splice in every view when they are tied. Lame. And every mag test has shown the A10 GT beating every SS in acceleration, regardless of trans.-so it doesn't take a mile for the GT to win. The A10 SS got the closest- 12.1 vs 12.2 per Car and Driver, and the GT trapped +2 mph (120 vs 118 mph). Anyway, this shouldn't have even been brought up considering this is a GT500 vs ZL1 thread.

Unfortunately, no one has actually bothered to run an auto Camaro SS in a legit test since 2016. Even then, it was a bunch of hot lap times. I think they finally did a half-assed test with the new 10 spd...but it wasn't anything to write home about even then..

The funny thing is, all of the tests we see from the mags involve premium air , perfect track conditions, etc... none of the Camaro tests are ever done that way...

I would just like to see them take two cars, identical setups, and go for max effort for once... instead of these lame ass ooooh I can run a mile runs..

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by shaffe

From glancing over at 6G, there were some that were mad, some that didn't care but the majority wanted to know WHY.

Since tone is hard to decipher on forums, none of this is to come of as hostile/aggressive lol.

Who mentioned tires? I am asking becuase I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere other than over at 6G. I didn't see it mentioned in the C&D article or the jalopnik article. Who mentioned the suspension? I am legit asking because I haven't seen anything from Ford that mentioned those things. the closest I saw to that was that they want the car to excel at the strip and track.

And lets just put this in hypotheticals since the car isn't out yet, if it beats all the cars its supposed to on the strip and the track would you still call it a failure because it doesn't have the fastest top speed? That sounds like a middle school argument if you ask me.

Some of the courses people love to talk times about the most here:

Ring
VIR
Laguna Seca

None of those course did the ZLE hit 180, closest it came is 173 IIRC on the ring and the regular ZL1 hit 181. At VIR I think the top speed hit was like 145, and maybe 125-130 on Laguna.

Stock ZL1 at a standing mile hit 174, stock hellcat also hit 174 and a demon hit 181. (Times pulled from texas mile youtube, cars are listed as stock)


So if it's legit that they didn't hit 180 while chasing their goals and in testing so they just capped it at 180 that is fine with me.


BUT if its like you are guessing, that they cut corners or its not stable past 180 then yeah I would be concerned a little. Again, I am more interested concerned in the WHY than the actual cap.

If the One that is capped to 180 is the Regular GT500, then the Carbon TP (The One that goes against the ZLE) Will be far less of that speed

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The video clearly shows the GT is a M6, not the A10. I hate how that video is edited. Just show the race, don't splice in every view when they are tied. Lame. And every mag test has shown the A10 GT beating every SS in acceleration, regardless of trans.-so it doesn't take a mile for the GT to win. The A10 SS got the closest- 12.1 vs 12.2 per Car and Driver, and the GT trapped +2 mph (120 vs 118 mph). Anyway, this shouldn't have even been brought up considering this is a GT500 vs ZL1 thread.

Actually there is a mag test where a M6 SS beat an A10 GT..... also Car and Driver ran the manual SS at a 12.2. Back to the 500... if it has enough down force to be competitive on a track with a ZLE then it should be stable at high speed. If the car is getting lift there is no way it is competitive to a ZLE or even the ZL1. I agree with Shafe the reason for the limiter is important. If stability is an issue as we suspect then the car sucks in my book.

Even the Damn Hellcat Redeye will top 200 and so the actual reason here is a concern.