[ZL1plumbin]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

I plan on buying a 2650 Maggie pretty soon. As the market dries up for ICE engines so will the aftermarket.

You’ve got that right. Was thinking about exhaust companies the other day. They don’t have much longer left. I know the cars aren’t going to be off the road anytime real soon but with the double blow of the epa junk it’s just not good.

BUT guess what? At one time there were lots of saddle shops around too… lol

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by ZL1plumbin

You’ve got that right. Was thinking about exhaust companies the other day. They don’t have much longer left. I know the cars aren’t going to be off the road anytime real soon but with the double blow of the epa junk it’s just not good.

BUT guess what? At one time there were lots of saddle shops around too… lol

Actually, there still are. People do still ride horses.

[ZL1plumbin]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Actually, there still are. People do still ride horses.

I did say “lots”

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by ZL1plumbin

I did say “lots”

True

[ZL1plumbin]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

True

I can see this whole speak easy seedy underground back alley tuning shop thing going down in the apocalyptic future. They’ll have those portable Dynos so they cant be pinned down at a certain location… lol

[Fak_Ork]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I own both. The M3P is quick from a dig up until about 60mph, after that torque falls off fast. Like you mentioned the interior is boring, seats don't hold you in place, no HUD, no gauges, etc. It has open diffs with lots of software nanny control that you can't really disable. No drive modes, no magnetic ride suspension. All the money went into the powertrain and battery. The rest of the car is pretty basic.

The other thing that folks don't realize at first is how much power you lose as your state of charge drops. The performance numbers you see are when the car is at 85% charged or higher, which is only for a brief period because you are only supposed to charge to 90% max unless taking a trip. As your SoC drops you will lose power. If memory serves, the difference in power between 90% charge and 60% charge was over 50hp and .5 sec in times. Once you get down to 30% you take an even bigger hit.

The Model 3 makes for a great daily driver and it is cool in many ways but it doesn't scratch the itch the same way so I went a picked up a 2021 ZL1 before they stop making them. There is a charm to the Camaro, the high belt-line, exhaust note, aggressive styling, supercharger whine, the way it rips through the shifts and just pulls and pulls. The Camaro handling is also much sharper. The Camaro feels special, the Tesla can't do that for me. It has more of an appliance type feel and you just know that the whole industry is headed in this direction leaving fewer and fewer enthusiast cars available.

Maybe GM will find a way to make a desirable performance EV. GM will need to find ways to make the car exciting for enthusiasts. When you lose the sound, lack of driving engagement without a manual or at least some paddles, it gets boring pretty quick.

This is a great post, and offers great perspective! Funny that you mention Magnetic ride control as this is the only mechanical option I would plan to add to that 1SS outside of the A10. I really like ICE, step-geared automatics and the feedback from a well engineered car or truck but I think I might be able to adapt pretty well to an EV with lots of HP. Range wouldn't really concern me even on my 3 to 4 times yearly 400 mile one way trips. I could plug in at the end location and hit a supercharger once in the middle without too much trouble.

The only thing I would question is that I've seen some information that pegs the departure point from full power more at 75 percent than 85 percent, which would be a big distinction. Road and Track was also able to clock the same 0-60 both at 75 percent and 100 percent in their tests although this was a then top-spec Model S.

Inside EV in the article below puts the loss at a very significant 64 HP but says that the decline starts at 75 so they compare 75 to 45 percent.

https://insideevs.com/news/381551/vi...ance-soc-dyno/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gets-depleted/

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by ZL1plumbin

I can see this whole speak easy seedy underground back alley tuning shop thing going down in the apocalyptic future. They’ll have those portable Dynos so they cant be pinned down at a certain location… lol

(knocks on door)big al sent me..i need 16 gallons of premium.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Fak_Ork

This is a great post, and offers great perspective! Funny that you mention Magnetic ride control as this is the only mechanical option I would plan to add to that 1SS outside of the A10. I really like ICE, step-geared automatics and the feedback from a well engineered car or truck but I think I might be able to adapt pretty well to an EV with lots of HP. Range wouldn't really concern me even on my 3 to 4 times yearly 400 mile one way trips. I could plug in at the end location and hit a supercharger once in the middle without too much trouble.

The only thing I would question is that I've seen some information that pegs the departure point from full power more at 75 percent than 85 percent, which would be a big distinction. Road and Track was also able to clock the same 0-60 both at 75 percent and 100 percent in their tests although this was a then top-spec Model S.

Inside EV in the article below puts the loss at a very significant 64 HP but says that the decline starts at 75 so they compare 75 to 45 percent.

https://insideevs.com/news/381551/vi...ance-soc-dyno/

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...gets-depleted/

Don't get me wrong, the car still feels quick at 40% charge but you can tell a difference as you should be able to feel 64hp with the butt dyno. You also do not get anywhere near the rated range in an EV when you are hammering on it but the same can be said for ICE based cars. The big thing that surprises most people is that the best practice is you charge to a max of 80-90% and recharge before you fall below 20% so your useable able is quite less than advertised. Tesla has some battery tech now where it is ok to charge to 100%, which should help and the range keeps getting better with low roll resistance tires, etc.

The big thing I think most will most when we are stuck with EVs is the character of the powertrain. The Tesla is quick but it is a pretty numb experience otherwise. The ZL1 roars to life, makes great noise and vibration that creates for more drama and excitement. The seating position, the gauges, the styling, aggressive stance, driving engagement, etc. It all matters and the sum of all of those characteristics is what makes a great car that you will remember vs. the ones you don't.

[ctrlz]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

The ZL1 roars to life, makes great noise and vibration that creates for more drama and excitement.

Once this EV market takes off, it will segment. There will be modders and others that want aggressive sound and styling. It may all be fake like the sound tube they have (or had) in the Camaro and gizmos like CAI's that add more looks than power. But there will be a market there.

Weren't there already BMW's that had exhaust sounds piped through the stereo?

[Fak_Ork]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Don't get me wrong, the car still feels quick at 40% charge but you can tell a difference as you should be able to feel 64hp with the butt dyno. You also do not get anywhere near the rated range in an EV when you are hammering on it but the same can be said for ICE based cars. The big thing that surprises most people is that the best practice is you charge to a max of 80-90% and recharge before you fall below 20% so your useable able is quite less than advertised. Tesla has some battery tech now where it is ok to charge to 100%, which should help and the range keeps getting better with low roll resistance tires, etc.

The big thing I think most will most when we are stuck with EVs is the character of the powertrain. The Tesla is quick but it is a pretty numb experience otherwise. The ZL1 roars to life, makes great noise and vibration that creates for more drama and excitement. The seating position, the gauges, the styling, aggressive stance, driving engagement, etc. It all matters and the sum of all of those characteristics is what makes a great car that you will remember vs. the ones you don't.

These are all big factors. I'm drawn to the immediacy and brutality of the Performance electric cars, would be able to adapt them to long trips but I also drive a diesel 1/2 ton truck which, while highly refined, offers a lot of satisfying and visceral ICE feedback- something I agree would be a huge plus for the Camaro.

We have one gas station with 93 Octane, and everything else is 91 around here which may blunt some of the 455 HP that the LT1 offers but I would have to balance that with partial charge conditions and the resulting loss of power. It's also very strange to have one offering that's relatively well sorted- Teslas- while everyone else is offering big promises, econoboxes or over-the-top priced models.

Wild and weird times for sure.

[jamala00]

Just read an article that the Hellcat is dead after 2023

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I own both. The M3P is quick from a dig up until about 60mph, after that torque falls off fast. Like you mentioned the interior is boring, seats don't hold you in place, no HUD, no gauges, etc. It has open diffs with lots of software nanny control that you can't really disable. No drive modes, no magnetic ride suspension. All the money went into the powertrain and battery. The rest of the car is pretty basic.

The other thing that folks don't realize at first is how much power you lose as your state of charge drops. The performance numbers you see are when the car is at 85% charged or higher, which is only for a brief period because you are only supposed to charge to 90% max unless taking a trip. As your SoC drops you will lose power. If memory serves, the difference in power between 90% charge and 60% charge was over 50hp and .5 sec in times. Once you get down to 30% you take an even bigger hit.

The Model 3 makes for a great daily driver and it is cool in many ways but it doesn't scratch the itch the same way so I went a picked up a 2021 ZL1 before they stop making them. There is a charm to the Camaro, the high belt-line, exhaust note, aggressive styling, supercharger whine, the way it rips through the shifts and just pulls and pulls. The Camaro handling is also much sharper. The Camaro feels special, the Tesla can't do that for me. It has more of an appliance type feel and you just know that the whole industry is headed in this direction leaving fewer and fewer enthusiast cars available.

Maybe GM will find a way to make a desirable performance EV. GM will need to find ways to make the car exciting for enthusiasts. When you lose the sound, lack of driving engagement without a manual or at least some paddles, it gets boring pretty quick.

I wanted to quote this because this is probably one of the best posts in this thread. I highly doubt for the first couple of decades that Manufacturers will be able to make it fun for enthusiasts which will lead to the used car market being used or them buying up and fixing wrecked vehicles or buying Mustangs for as long as the V8 is available in them. I am in this boat but am considering the last MY of the 6th gen.

Everything that was said in this post is how I felt about EVs like the Tesla after I drove them fun for the first little bit but boring later on. Cars like the Camaro are fun in many many aspects which are straight liines, handling and I always try to find private areas where I am allowed to push myself to get better with my car. It is always fun to me.

When we have a place to charge it I do agree EVs will make a great daily driver to work and back or the grocery getter.

[ZL1plumbin]

Originally Posted by ctrlz

Once this EV market takes off, it will segment. There will be modders and others that want aggressive sound and styling. It may all be fake like the sound tube they have (or had) in the Camaro and gizmos like CAI's that add more looks than power. But there will be a market there.

Weren't there already BMW's that had exhaust sounds piped through the stereo?

Im not sure about the sound aspect BUT I feel like there’s going to be less “tuning” (obviously) and its going to come down to wheels, brakes, suspension, body kits, wraps etc. IMO basically everything people can do to cars now except dealing with the ICE and its components.

The EV market is going to suck for people like us until basically all of the cars we have access to now are available in EV form. (Real mustang, camaro, challenger, corvette etc)

IDC how fast the Tesla plaid is. I would never buy it. Talk about a soulless vehicle.
I think a lot of people that bought them just for the speed will feel the same way after not to long. I know I would.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Fak_Ork

These are all big factors. I'm drawn to the immediacy and brutality of the Performance electric cars, would be able to adapt them to long trips but I also drive a diesel 1/2 ton truck which, while highly refined, offers a lot of satisfying and visceral ICE feedback- something I agree would be a huge plus for the Camaro.

We have one gas station with 93 Octane, and everything else is 91 around here which may blunt some of the 455 HP that the LT1 offers but I would have to balance that with partial charge conditions and the resulting loss of power. It's also very strange to have one offering that's relatively well sorted- Teslas- while everyone else is offering big promises, econoboxes or over-the-top priced models.

Wild and weird times for sure.

Yep, having both is the best solution for me right now. My wife drives the Tesla and we use it for most of the daily driving stuff. Four doors and saves a ton on fuel. The Camaro is the fun car and a mild daily when the Tesla is not available. The Camaro only sees about 4000-5000 miles per year. I charge the Tesla at home in the garage about every other day. Electric bill increased about $25 a month to charge at home.

There are a lot of things that are great about owning a Tesla. The buying experience is pretty cool. You just order online, fill out the info online and pickup the car when it arrives. No haggling, 15 min to take delivery and drive away. Tesla also has mobile service so they come to you unless there is something major that requires a lift. Over the air updates keep adding new features and patch any bugs, yeah just like a computer. In fact, the car sometimes feels more like a computer with wheels than a car.

That said, Tesla is still maturing as a company. They have executed really well on the battery and powertrain and developing all their own control modules, software and UI to control it all. This is where the rest of the market is going to struggle a bit to catch up. On the flip side, you can tell they are not the best at building an actual car. The chassis, suspension, weight, materials, fit and finish are just not up to par for a car in this price range. My son's Honda Civic has better fit, finish and panel gaps then a Tesla Model 3. You can tell all the money went in to the powertrain and battery.