[USAFS197]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

Then why don't you just buy a bunch of car parts and make one yourself, Mr Science.

Actually that's something that I'd love to do. However, I'm unsure if the moniker you assigned was meant as a negative connotation or not but, I'll take it as a compliment either way--afterall, using your mind should always be considered a positive.

Everyone is entitled to their taste in cars, their way of life, etc., that's what do great about living free but it also has its shortcomings. Being associated with this group by proxy of ownership often times comes with its drawbacks, as demonstrated here. However, I do enjoy the speculation, the naysayers, the reasonable and the cordial exchanges of discussions such as this. The litter of wasteful, non-conducive banter however, I'd rather avoid.

Back onto the point at hand, my previous reference to the need to compete with horsepower numbers alone seems more like machismo and less like tangible metrics. I'd much rather have 650hp/tq in a 3600lb car than 797hp in a 4500lb car. Everything gets improved with less weight when you're concerned about real world metrics. So when I don't subscribe to the stock horsepower game, that's usually why. GM responding to the GT500 in kind by breaking historical trends and implanting an LT5 or even just a revised LT4 just for the sake of showing face, seems like an awful financial move. We already know that GM doesn't market the Camaro very well, so the word is less likely to reach the masses. Second, that's money spent on an aging chassis due for cancellation in the next few years. With them already spending money to fix the 2020 Camaro aesthetically, I think they already dipped into a place where they are doing damage control, not further performance development.

Now, could many of us be wrong? Absolutely. Maybe they will do something like that and surprise many of us, myself included. But I still think there should be a narrative involved in their thought process and not just some response of, well, 'Murica!

[Artos]

I think GM has been doing exactly what you are saying...the ss 1le & Zl1 are prime examples of engineering the best car for the money and perform better than the competition within the similar market segment / price range.

Yes, GM is a total fail having these outstanding wheels & not utilizing any sort of successful advertising campaign...however, horsepower, 0-60, 1/4mi times, towing power, braking distance, fuel economy, suspensions, price points, all of it matters in grand scheme of influencing potential buyers regardless if it's a sports car, truck, suv or economy. I'm certain all these influenced your decision in some aspect to end up with a SS 1LE. You didn't have your slide rule & calculator out balancing out the $$$$ to hp ratio & other criteria you mention when the 4 or 6cyl would have sufficed. I hear that all the time in the general section. 'you don't need the LT1, it's overkill, the 6cyl is plenty powerful'. We here that here in the ZL1 sect, 'you don't need forced induction, the NA LT1 is better balanced.'

There is no right or wrong & I'm sure the 6cyl is dandy, but there's no need to be critical of those wanting more juice & like stated before, the competition to bring out the most is what pushes these cars to improve in every aspect. I'm no fan of electric, but can't deny it's coming and some stupid whining 4wd looking civic will be zipping past my roaring v8 soon. Sorry, but that just sucks to me.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Artos

I think GM has been doing exactly what you are saying...the ss 1le & Zl1 are prime examples of engineering the best car for the money and perform better than the competition within the similar market segment / price range.

Yes, GM is a total fail having these outstanding wheels & not utilizing any sort of successful advertising campaign...however, horsepower, 0-60, 1/4mi times, towing power, braking distance, fuel economy, suspensions, price points, all of it matters in grand scheme of influencing potential buyers regardless if it's a sports car, truck, suv or economy. I'm certain all these influenced your decision in some aspect to end up with a SS 1LE. You didn't have your slide rule & calculator out balancing out the $$$$ to hp ratio & other criteria you mention when the 4 or 6cyl would have sufficed. I hear that all the time in the general section. 'you don't need the LT1, it's overkill, the 6cyl is plenty powerful'. We here that here in the ZL1 sect, 'you don't need forced induction, the NA LT1 is better balanced.'

There is no right or wrong & I'm sure the 6cyl is dandy, but there's no need to be critical of those wanting more juice & like stated before, the competition to bring out the most is what pushes these cars to improve in every aspect. I'm no fan of electric, but can't deny it's coming and some stupid whining 4wd looking civic will be zipping past my roaring v8 soon. Sorry, but that just sucks to me.

I am not sure of why someone who does not own a ZL1 comes to a ZL1 forum and like you said, criticize the use of higher HP motors to enhance a future generation of a car model. Their opinion really means nothing.

[drfeelgood]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

Yup. I guess that all but confirms I'm just not on the same page with most of you guys. Not an ounce of my being could give a single shit about how much horsepower a car comes with stock when considering its performance potential. I look at the chassis, engine architecture and drivetrain. Displacement, number of cylinders, manner of making power (turbo, supercharger, N/A) is all largely irrelevant to me. The car is nothing but a canvas in my eyes. I couldn't imagine being driven to purchase a car just because it has X horsepower or X torque more than its competitor. Otherwise, I would have jumped ship to another car a long time ago.

I think the fact that you own an SS and not a Zl1 already confirms that you aren't on the same page with most of us here, so going back and forth with you is kind of asinine.

It's totally ok to have a difference of opinion, and I'm not at all saying yours is wrong, it's just different.

We all bought the Zl1 for a reason. You chose an SS for your own reasons. If we have a difference in opinion regarding which Camaro is the right one to buy, we are quite possibly going to have a difference of opinion when it comes to the GM/Ford competition on one upping the other.

[USAFS197]

I’m catching a bit of a superiority complex here at times. If that is to infer that I have no place to speak about a particular trim of Camaro because I chose to purchase a different trim, sounds asinine to me. We are all debating about a hypothetical trim of a vehicle, much akin to the Z/28 subforum. Would any of us have any place to post there based upon that logic? An updated ZL1? Eh, still none of us own said vehicle yet so any one of us could be in the market for that and our feedback would be just as viable.

Resorting to ad hominem did not progress this conversation one bit. I chose an SS 1LE instead of a ZL1, yes. Often times people believe that someone purchased a vehicle due to what fits within their financial lane but, that wasn’t the case for me. I pride myself in understanding the competition, even internal competition—so I study up on it, as I think everyone should and therefore, I am here in these subforums. None of this has anything to do with the discussion at hand yet, here we are poking at my purchase choices as a means to categorize me. I have nothing against the current trims available. My concern is the viability of this offering, the narrative involved with going to a higher horsepower number purely for the sake of bragging rights and the cost that it will incur on both GM and the consumer.

I would be disappointed if the majority of ZL1 owners chose this vehicle just because it has more horsepower than the Mustang lineup or, they’re so brand loyal that they refuse to go to Dodge who offers vehicles that currently eclipse the Camaro lineup. I can’t really tell. UnavailableZL1 certainly seems to have a bone to pick with me, which is fine, I am not the least bit intimidated or dismayed by his rebuttals. This is a public forum after all. Opinions will differ and people will sometimes take offense to differing schools of thought as an affront to them personally. These forums do not require an intelligence quotient and thereby anyone with a working email address can post on here—feelings be damned.

Nonetheless, I think I’ve made it a point to continue to address the overarching topic at hand rather than just take pop shots at people who don’t agree with me. I still don’t think that this is a likely trim to exist but, as I mentioned before who knows GM might surprise us. They are a company out to make a profit and if at the end of the day, enough people call for it, they may indeed do it—much like the sudden refresh of the 19+ vehicles. Perhaps at this point, it may be more productive to push for this trim or revised version on a different media platform in the hopes to garner support. Look how widespread the feedback was to GM about the ‘19 cars.

[drfeelgood]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

I’m catching a bit of a superiority complex here at times. If that is to infer that I have no place to speak about a particular trim of Camaro because I chose to purchase a different trim, sounds asinine to me. We are all debating about a hypothetical trim of a vehicle, much akin to the Z/28 subforum. Would any of us have any place to post there based upon that logic? An updated ZL1? Eh, still none of us own said vehicle yet so any one of us could be in the market for that and our feedback would be just as viable.

Resorting to ad hominem did not progress this conversation one bit. I chose an SS 1LE instead of a ZL1, yes. Often times people believe that someone purchased a vehicle due to what fits within their financial lane but, that wasn’t the case for me. I pride myself in understanding the competition, even internal competition—so I study up on it, as I think everyone should and therefore, I am here in these subforums. None of this has anything to do with the discussion at hand yet, here we are poking at my purchase choices as a means to categorize me. I have nothing against the current trims available. My concern is the viability of this offering, the narrative involved with going to a higher horsepower number purely for the sake of bragging rights and the cost that it will incur on both GM and the consumer.

I would be disappointed if the majority of ZL1 owners chose this vehicle just because it has more horsepower than the Mustang lineup or, they’re so brand loyal that they refuse to go to Dodge who offers vehicles that currently eclipse the Camaro lineup. I can’t really tell. UnavailableZL1 certainly seems to have a bone to pick with me, which is fine, I am not the least bit intimidated or dismayed by his rebuttals. This is a public forum after all. Opinions will differ and people will sometimes take offense to differing schools of thought as an affront to them personally. These forums do not require an intelligence quotient and thereby anyone with a working email address can post on here—feelings be damned.

Nonetheless, I think I’ve made it a point to continue to address the overarching topic at hand rather than just take pop shots at people who don’t agree with me. I still don’t think that this is a likely trim to exist but, as I mentioned before who knows GM might surprise us. They are a company out to make a profit and if at the end of the day, enough people call for it, they may indeed do it—much like the sudden refresh of the 19+ vehicles. Perhaps at this point, it may be more productive to push for this trim or revised version on a different media platform in the hopes to garner support. Look how widespread the feedback was to GM about the ‘19 cars.

you clearly did not understand the point I was making. You chose an SS, which is in every way inferior to the Zl1.. On the track, on the strip, on the street, it doesn't compare. From transmission options to, well you get the point.

So what makes a person choose an inferior vehicle from a performance standpoint? Usually its money, but for some, they can't handle or don't want the extra power, So take that person, that has an option to choose a better vehicle, but decides not to, for whatever reason, and ask that person about the idea of GM creating a version of an existing vehicle that one-ups the competition regarding HP and performance, and their outlook is likely going to be different. That's my point. Whatever mindset you have that drove you to choosing an SS is the same mindset driving your opinion on the topic at hand.

Most of the people on here didn't choose the Zl1 just because it had more horsepower in the pony car race. (Dodge wins the straight up HP competition,, which was an option when we bought this vehicle). They chose it because it is, by a good margin, the best "all around" performance vehicle at this price point, compared to any vehicle on the road.. including offerings from Ford and Dodge. But make no mistake, every one of these companies uses the current version of the competition as a metric to create their next version.

GM has done many a thing that to some wouldn't seem like it would make financial sense. From the creation of the LT1 (vehicle, not engine), to the limited run offerings of things like the 1000HP Yenko package on the current SS. So with the limited production expectations of the ZR1, why would it be beyond the mark to get more use out of the LT5, and drop it in the Camaro for a limited production of vehicles that would compete, even if for a short time, with the GT500? The engine is already there. Same for the LT4. Creating an upgrade option package for $10K with larger SC, upgraded pulleys , etc. would easily bring the Camaro up to 750hp, and wouldn't take much effort on the part of GM.

So again, Just because YOU wouldn't do it, doesn't mean that GM wouldn't ... your opinion (as is ours) is evident by decisions you have already made in the HP/Performance race regarding vehicles...

unlike my counterpart, that's not meant to be a dis, just stating facts

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

I would be disappointed if the majority of ZL1 owners chose this vehicle just because it has more horsepower than the Mustang lineup or, they’re so brand loyal that they refuse to go to Dodge who offers vehicles that currently eclipse the Camaro lineup. I can’t really tell.

I cannot speak for others, But I chose a ZL1 because of the package...it's the whole enchilada. I believe most others chose the Z for that reason as well.

I just take issue with the condescension on both sides, and that you seem to not realize we are at a historic hp war...reminiscent of the late '60's. There's no reason to bring body parts (of the human sort) into it. Otherwise, why did you not buy an LT?

I'm always for more hp, but it must come in a package: handling, skidpad (1.2 or 1.3 on the track), and acceleration. Pure hp means nothing to me if it cannot handle it.

I think the fisticuffs at hand is that you come to the Camaro forum...the ZL1 forum no less, and pooh-pooh the idea of more hp. That's a critical 1/3 of the ingredients for most of us.

[Markoz28]

In case you don’t know “EVERYONE CARES ABOUT HORSE POWER!”

If not we would all be talking about the greatest daily driving car for the money, which is the Honda Accord V6. Guess what I daily?

[Squatch]

I buy ZL1 because I have only ever driven Camaros my whole life...and the Z has the most HP, and it still seems slow.

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Squatch

I buy ZL1 because I have only ever driven Camaros my whole life...and the Z has the most HP, and it still seems slow.

Have you driven a 6GEN ZL1? It is much improved over the 2014 MY ZL1

[MaskedRacerX]

Clearly this would be a case of enthusiasts vs. accountants. There's not a notable business case for the costs (testing, tooling, etc.), even with those being lower due to existing development (i.e., the LT5).

I mean, this isn't a great pitch, "We have a model that's not selling well, even with substantial discounts in the consumer channels, but we'd like to build another version with at least a $10K higher MSRP". If anything it seems like GM is trying to find a way to offer cheaper performance options with some of the new packages.

Now, would be it be awesome? Sure. Would some real car people inside of GM love to do it (especially with the GT500 looming)? I'd bet on it. Are there __some__ buyers for a ~755HP, ~$80K Camaro? No doubt (don't get too hung up on my phantom pricing ...)

I totally get the go-out-with-a-bang, but outside of the hard to justify economics of such a program, there's also the Corvette, and I don't think GM wants to dilute their all new model/platform by introducing a new Camaro flavor that's [substantially?] better performing than their new flagship (and is kind of off message vs. the mid-engine direction for their higher dollar performance cars).

I think they're going to ride it out for a couple of years, clean up the model variants, trying to become more competitive in the lower/mid-market - maybe introduce a few special editions that are just aesthetics, but nothing that requires any major re-engineering.








... all that being said, if they do it, please offer it in a convertible

[SFV1LE]

What I like about the idea of the LT5 in the ZL1 is the headroom--the 2650 supercharger is underused in the 750 BHP ZR1, I believe it's capable of at least 1000 HP efficiently. So in theory you could dial it up to 850-900 BHP and not cause overheating for road course use. At that point I'd be looking at a 315/30/19-F, 345/30/19-R setup to handle the added power.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by GrimReaperSS

So in reality, what would everyone here be willing to pay for a LT5 equipped Camaro? At $75k, the Gen 5 Z/28 "was over priced" and "who would pay that much for a CAMARO?!". Today, people seem to be better about pricing as ZL1's and ZL1 1LE's are in the mid $70's and I don't really hear those same complaints. I priced out a Challenger Hellcat Red Eye Widebody a few weeks a go and easily touched $95k. The new GT500 may start at ~$73k, but can also very quickly be in the $90's (w/o the ADM, which will likely be insane, already hearing $40k-$50K). So again, how many here buy a Camaro in the high $80k to mid $90k range if Chevrolet decided to go tit-for-tat and drop in the LT5 and maybe some other upgrades if there could be any? I love the idea of the car, but I am not someone who is in any position to purchase a new Muscle/Sports Car from any manufacturer in that price range.
Keep in mind as well, to all the comments of "They can't just drop in the LT5 w/o some modifications to the body/vehicle structure", I'm sure this is true, but along with those changes, the vehicle will also require new crash test safety testing and EPA certifications as well. All of these test and certifications cost GM money and will be transfered into the price of the vehicle. It is not a simple "it wont cost them anything to do this" endeavour because they can raid the parts bin.
I would love to create a poll on here as well, somewhere, to see where Camaro enthusiasts performance passions are centered around. Such as for me, I could care less if they made a Camaro to compete with a Demon (which is no longer in production anyway). Drag racing is ok for a day to me, after that, I'm bored with it. I live about an hour from Road America and find spending my time there A LOT more thrilling. For my performance ideals, GM/Chevrolet is spot on with this current generation of Camaro. Everyone is different, so I would be curious what other enthusiasts think about where Camaro performance should focus. How many people just buy the car to cruise around in, canyon carver, Auto-X, Drag Race or Road Course? I guess what that would lead to is, say the LT5 does get planted in a Gen 6, should the car be a street legal version of the COPO to compete with the now old Demon or in a ZL1 1LE to stay on pace with the , the paint isn't even dry yet, GT500?

The reason the Z/28 at 75K was looked at as overpriced is because it was stripped out, had a radio with 1 speaker and AC was optional. The ZLE at 72 or whatever it starts at is not only a better performer but is still fully loaded.

As an enthusiast, I would have to say I would always spend more time days at the strip then on a road course. would I love to get on a road course, hell yes I would but a day at the road course is quite expensive compared to a day at the strip.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Not necessarily. If the base GT500 isnt faster on the track, and it is at least a driver's race, then I dont see GM doing anything to raise the bar. Same as last generation, except for the extension for this generation.

When it debuted the ZL1 was as fast as the Hellcat in the 1/4 in stock form, and nothing could touch it around a track. It is soon to be last in the 1/4 mile, and if the GT500 makes it 2nd at the track, then I would be shocked to see GM do nothing at all about it.

Is there a reason people jump to an LT5 version Camaro, instead of an improved LT4 with higher output? Surely the LT4 isnt maxed out. A larger blower on an LT4 would be easier and cheaper than dumping in the LT5 I am sure. Maybe GM can't get the needed reliability that route or something? I am not sure, but for a novice like me that seems way more plausible than an LT5 Camaro.

Good points.

Originally Posted by MikeEM1

Look at the past for answers. LS9 was only used in C6 ZR1. It will probably be the same for LT5 C7 ZR1. Just my thoughts.

That is my thought as well. No engine used in a ZR1 Corvette has ever gone into anything else. And I suspect the LT5 will remain a Corvette exclusive to send the C7 and front engine vette of into the sunset.

Now I want them to put the LT5 in, or bump the power because I think they would create the ultimate pony car. I personally just don't see it happening, using past examples as my guidlines. LS6 never went to Camaro, LS9 never went to camaro, LS7 only went after Corvette was no longer using it.

[ddivinia]

LT5 Camaro would be awesome. Need it with a stick in a vert.

D.