[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by SecondZ28

The biggest issue I see with the new mid-engine C8 is the lack of a proper manual transmission

The C8 at some point may have a manual but not in the current configuration you’re use to driving. GM applied for a patent on a clutch by wire system that many think will find its way into the C8. Their has been no official word just yet so it’s a waiting game for now.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

Even so, the current Camaro, is a better car than the C7 Corvette.

Errrr what?

You have to explain that statement. The Camaro is certainly not the better performance car.

If you mean better because it has useless rear seat then I'm with you. If you mean better because it's more affordable, then ok. But from materials, build quality, paint quality and performance, the Corvette is a much better car.

Remember you can buy a $25,000 Camaro and that shows up in the SS and ZL1.

That being said, the Mid Engine car has the potential to be a complete disaster for GM. The Corvette is also an awesome GT. I've taken so many long trips in C5/C6 Corvettes with golf clubs and luggage and the only complaint is the bulkhead that prevents the passenger seat to recline if you want to take a nap on the trip. The Mid Engine car will likely give most of that up. Keep in mind the Acura NSX is one of the best Mid Engine cars available and it sold like 500 units last year. Granted that's over $150,000 and I'm guessing GM will come in at $75,000 (mostly because when the C7 was supposed to be Mid Engine the early pricing target was at the Average Transaction Price for a C6 at the time, mid 50s). But I expect the C8 to be about as useful as a C3. And as we keep talking here that the Camaro needs a bit more practicality to increase sales volumes, I expect the C8 to purely awesome, just like the Camaro is. But as we see with the Camaro, that doesn't automatically lead to sales. They did just announce 400 new jobs at Bowling Green so GM must be expecting even more sales than today. Or it simply take more labor to build the car which will only ensure higher prices.

Now longer term, we know GM is all about profit. My guess is that when they slide the Corvette up in price (I would be on the floor if they somehow offer the C8 at the same starting price as the C7), then there mayyyyyyy be room to take the Camaro up further as well. If GM accepts that Camaro sales are going to continue to be 40 to 50,000 units and if they believe they can't get the volume up to improve profitability they could take the Camaro up market. Yes, a ZL1 is an awesome car, but if you aren't hung up on having an American brand or a big NA V8 or you don't aspire to spend $70,000 plus on a Chevy you are now in the neighborhood of a BMW M4 or Audi RS5. The ZL1 doesn't have the interior or luxury features of those cars, or the brand acceptance because the Camaro is also a $25,000 car.

Years ago there was a study done to get a 4 seater (2+2) off of the Corvette architecture. It never went anywhere, but it packaged. With no evidence, it is possible GM could do something along this line for a Gen7 Camaro. A lot of the Chassis work would be done already. But that would be years away if at all.

With no prototypes running around yet, there is no Gen7 for at least a year and a half or so. 2022 at best.

My prediction:

C8 does not sell in C6/C7 numbers

Gen7 will slide up market

Most C8 buyers who need more practicality than a Mid Engine car can deliver will abandon GM as if they thought the Camaro was a better car they would have already bought one. A few GM loyalists may slide down market for an SS/ZL1.

By 2022/23 GM will have the two best performance cars on the planet...………..and sales will underperform on both. And on this count I hope I'm wrong.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Errrr what?

You have to explain that statement. The Camaro is certainly not the better performance car.

If you mean better because it has useless rear seat then I'm with you. If you mean better because it's more affordable, then ok. But from materials, build quality, paint quality and performance, the Corvette is a much better car.

Remember you can buy a $25,000 Camaro and that shows up in the SS and ZL1.

That being said, the Mid Engine car has the potential to be a complete disaster for GM. The Corvette is also an awesome GT. I've taken so many long trips in C5/C6 Corvettes with golf clubs and luggage and the only complaint is the bulkhead that prevents the passenger seat to recline if you want to take a nap on the trip. The Mid Engine car will likely give most of that up. Keep in mind the Acura NSX is one of the best Mid Engine cars available and it sold like 500 units last year. Granted that's over $150,000 and I'm guessing GM will come in at $75,000 (mostly because when the C7 was supposed to be Mid Engine the early pricing target was at the Average Transaction Price for a C6 at the time, mid 50s). But I expect the C8 to be about as useful as a C3. And as we keep talking here that the Camaro needs a bit more practicality to increase sales volumes, I expect the C8 to purely awesome, just like the Camaro is. But as we see with the Camaro, that doesn't automatically lead to sales. They did just announce 400 new jobs at Bowling Green so GM must be expecting even more sales than today. Or it simply take more labor to build the car which will only ensure higher prices.

Now longer term, we know GM is all about profit. My guess is that when they slide the Corvette up in price (I would be on the floor if they somehow offer the C8 at the same starting price as the C7), then there mayyyyyyy be room to take the Camaro up further as well. If GM accepts that Camaro sales are going to continue to be 40 to 50,000 units and if they believe they can't get the volume up to improve profitability they could take the Camaro up market. Yes, a ZL1 is an awesome car, but if you aren't hung up on having an American brand or a big NA V8 or you don't aspire to spend $70,000 plus on a Chevy you are now in the neighborhood of a BMW M4 or Audi RS5. The ZL1 doesn't have the interior or luxury features of those cars, or the brand acceptance because the Camaro is also a $25,000 car.

Years ago there was a study done to get a 4 seater (2+2) off of the Corvette architecture. It never went anywhere, but it packaged. With no evidence, it is possible GM could do something along this line for a Gen7 Camaro. A lot of the Chassis work would be done already. But that would be years away if at all.

With no prototypes running around yet, there is no Gen7 for at least a year and a half or so. 2022 at best.

My prediction:

C8 does not sell in C6/C7 numbers

Gen7 will slide up market

Most C8 buyers who need more practicality than a Mid Engine car can deliver will abandon GM as if they thought the Camaro was a better car they would have already bought one. A few GM loyalists may slide down market for an SS/ZL1.

By 2022/23 GM will have the two best performance cars on the planet...………..and sales will underperform on both. And on this count I hope I'm wrong.

Good read but I’m leaning to the side that your off a bit on pricing. Most of the guys posting interviews that are close to GM are talking about only a $3,500 to $5,000 price increases over the current base model. That would bring the base C8 Corvette in starting at around $60,000 to $64,000

If they want to keep their current repeat customers they can’t jump the line by ten thousand dollars

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

Good read but I’m leaning to the side that your off a bit on pricing. Most of the guys posting interviews that are close to GM are talking about only a $3,500 to $5,000 price increases over the current base model. That would bring the base C8 Corvette in starting at around $60,000 to $64,000

If they want to keep their current repeat customers they can’t jump the line by ten thousand dollars

I hope you are right on that. As I said, back when the C7 was Mid Engine, ATP was the target price. And you can thank Uncle Sam for the C7.

From a costed BOM standpoint there isn't much that should drive the cost wildly higher. Transmission and cooling would be big differences, but nothing about the interior should drive the price up unless they go further up market in materials.

But my worry isn't really cost. If they bring it in at the same price, I worry that a Mid Engine will fundamentally change how the car can be used.

Hiring 400 folks for a 2nd shift at BG is a big sign that GM expects great sales potential.

I'm really looking forward to the reveal in July.

[frostys]

Originally Posted by Number 3

By 2022/23 GM will have the two best performance cars on the planet...………..and sales will underperform on both. And on this count I hope I'm wrong.

If this happen, the Camaro will die again. GM will not keep 2 model with low sales numbers and the Camaro will be killed before the Corvette every single day of the week.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by frostys

If this happen, the Camaro will die again. GM will not keep 2 model with low sales numbers and the Camaro will be killed before the Corvette every single day of the week.

The Camaro is only selling 1,000 units per month more than when it was killed earlier.

It's saving grace is that it is built in a plant with 2 other models. If the Camaro were in a stand alone plant like it was in St. Therese it would likely be dead now. Also being built of off a shared architecture means the cost it was going to take to keep the Camaro viable on it's own architecture for 2001 and later spreads the cost.

The Camaro should be safe for now, it's just a matter of how they can continue to keep it profitable. Camaro was killed once. Nothing guarantees it's survival more than being profitable and keep investment low.

But if there were any short term plans that endangered the Camaro, the 2020 refresh almost assures us it has at least a longer term plan.

Changing the front fascia, putting the 10 speed behind the V6 and even releasing the V8 into an LT1 model all cost GM a few million dollars in capital and engineering expense. If the Camaro were remotely at risk those would not have happened.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I hope you are right on that. As I said, back when the C7 was Mid Engine, ATP was the target price. And you can thank Uncle Sam for the C7.

From a costed BOM standpoint there isn't much that should drive the cost wildly higher. Transmission and cooling would be big differences, but nothing about the interior should drive the price up unless they go further up market in materials.

But my worry isn't really cost. If they bring it in at the same price, I worry that a Mid Engine will fundamentally change how the car can be used.

Hiring 400 folks for a 2nd shift at BG is a big sign that GM expects great sales potential.

I'm really looking forward to the reveal in July.

Me too!
I with you on how the mid engine could effect the use of the car. I just had that conversation at the last car show I was entered. I spoke with a retired couple that likes to travel with their club and just take road trips, their concerned about luggage space for long road trips with the C8 design. Will be interesting to see how much room is provided for Corvette travelers.

[LT4Greg]

The future of the 6.2 may be short due to the fact that GM might go to a 5.5 liter or smaller due to the EPA regulations and gasoline prices. They are getting some good hp numbers from the 5.5 liters in the Corvette Racing teams race cars so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the 6.2 is phased out in the near future.

[genxer]

The C8 camo car looks like there is potential for decent storage in the back.

Do larger (in this day) people bringing more things open a door for a Cadillac omega coupe/convertible? It could check all the comfort and performance boxes for a touring couple without compromising for track capability.

Was the 2+2 Corvette study front engine? Is there anything stopping doing both front and rear engine models in full production? I can't imagine that having more profit margin than being on alpha. Is that what people are getting at by raising the idea of V8 only Camaros?

I know de-contenting is a dirty word, but a low-trim Camaro doesn't really carry high expectations (7th gen can aim those trims better).

[V8 Firebird]

Sport car market isn't big like before, the sales has been declining for years. GM couldn't keep it in losing profit and money and still makes small different between Vette and Camaro.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by LT1Greg

The future of the 6.2 may be short due to the fact that GM might go to a 5.5 liter or smaller due to the EPA regulations and gasoline prices. They are getting some good hp numbers from the 5.5 liters in the Corvette Racing teams race cars so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if the 6.2 is phased out in the near future.

The 5.5 liter is a race engine and doesn’t have to meet the durability, fuel economy or emissions standards a production engine needs to meet. There’s a reason the LS went from 5.7 liters to 6.2 liters but the LT started at 6.2 liters. They need the displacement to get the power they wanted.

[Norm Peterson]

The 5.5 is a race engine in its current form. But if it ever came down to an either-or situation between emissions and fuel economy 'musts' vs power 'wants', wouldn't it be at least reasonable to explore smaller displacements of an engine design that already has a huge knowledge base?


Norm

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The 5.5 is a race engine in its current form. But if it ever came down to emissions and fuel economy 'musts' vs power 'wants', wouldn't it be at least reasonable to explore smaller displacements of an engine design that already has a huge knowledge base?


Norm

I would have to think that motor in a hybrid set up would have to hit all the musts and wants .

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by genxer

The C8 camo car looks like there is potential for decent storage in the back.

Do larger (in this day) people bringing more things open a door for a Cadillac omega coupe/convertible? It could check all the comfort and performance boxes for a touring couple without compromising for track capability.

Was the 2+2 Corvette study front engine? Is there anything stopping doing both front and rear engine models in full production? I can't imagine that having more profit margin than being on alpha. Is that what people are getting at by raising the idea of V8 only Camaros?

I know de-contenting is a dirty word, but a low-trim Camaro doesn't really carry high expectations (7th gen can aim those trims better).

It's very hard until we actually see the car and some dimensions.

Personally, as I've stated many times, there are two reasons I didn't pull the trigger on Gen6. Visibility is atrocious and trunk space doesn't allow golf clubs without the rear seat folded down. It's basically a Corvette at that point.

You are correct, a ton of people will not find these to be issues in the C8. This website is full of Camaro enthusiasts who flame anyone that criticizes visibility, and trunk size is not likely a purchasing consideration.

However, when I'm on trips (I drive rather than fly), I see Corvettes on the road. I've taken Corvettes on the road. Can't recall seeing a GT500, NSX, McLaren or even an R8. I see them all locally on occasion, but I don't know of anyone taking their supercar on long road trips. LOL, for all I know people than can afford a $150,000 super car just fly and rent one there.

If the C8 transforms the market in this regard, awesome!

We'll know in July.

I originally thought the intent was to keep both cars in production. That doesn't look to be the case. It depends on how they configures the car. There are plants that can build very different body styles on the same line. It's possible, but it doesn't look likely now. This is why it is important to hit the sweet spot of why C5/6/7 owners bought cars and get new owners with the ME car. It would pretty silly to go, "hey, let's completely abandon the Corvette buyers of today and come up with something completely different". It has to do what the C5/6/7 did but more. By more, there is only one reason to ME and that is traction. I'm not sure people who never thought of a Corvette will go, "hey, it doesn't perform any better than a C7, but now that the engine is behind me I'm going to buy one". Engine location in and of itself is no reason to do a ME car.

And I'm a big fan of the idea of an Omega coupe.