[Mountain]

Originally Posted by weemus

This is a bit of a read for the geeky but I would mention that toe out does help with high speed stability and maximum cornering ability. So the argument to go to zero toe is purely to keep consumables to minimum.
So its more a question on what is lost in order to maximize tire life. I'm not taking about radical changes but some turn in and high speed mid corner feel.

https://www.me.ua.edu/me364/PDF/Steering_Ackerman.pdf

Yep. Zero toe, in front, seems to be the compromise between tire wear and performance.

On the SS 1LE and ZL1, the front wheels (10"wide with 20mm offset) causes a positive scrub on the tire (inside of tire). I would assume the ZL1 1LE is the same or more-so and an SS of LT/LS car close to zero. I'm talking factory wheel specs here. You can see this for yourself - clean off you front tires, roll onto a lightly dirty, flat surface and turn your car's steering wheel through it's full rotation. Roll the car back and look at the tire contact patch.

Negative toe, negative camber and positive scrub up front = a recipe for highly accelerated wear to the inside of the tire.
Zero toe, negative camber and positive scrub up front = a recipe for lesser accelerated wear to the inside of the tire.
Toe is a very significant component to tire wear.

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by kropscamaro16

so im upgrading to a set of these from michelin ps4s and i have a 16 1ss and normally just do the oem track alignment -2 front 1.5- rear and i am adding the spl toelinks in the rear would you guys recommend a bit more camber in the front? or just leave it alone

From my experience on the 6th Gen Camaro platform, around -2.5 camber up front is a sweet spot. Wear isn't terrible on the street and gives a pretty good wear pattern and contact patch on track.

I run -2.7 and am pretty happy with that on the SS 1LE on-track. I think -3.0 would be great on-track, but I can see, though, from looking at my tire's inside edge after street driving on -2.7 that I am running on the very edge of the inside tread.

I ran approximately -2 in my 2016 SS and a friend runs about that in his SS. From my observations in on-track tire wear, I suggest going more up front.

[kropscamaro16]

what is the most you should be able to get up front without camber plates?

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by kropscamaro16

what is the most you should be able to get up front without camber plates?

Given you're on lowering springs, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to get to at lest -2.5.

On a stock SS 1LE, can be -2.5 to -2.9.
On a stock SS, around -1.8 to -2.2 (I think MRC strut housings allow a bit more over non-MRC).

[kropscamaro16]

lowering springs and aftermarket shocks lol ok thanks ill have em see what they can do next time

[R3ctivision]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Yep. Zero toe, in front, seems to be the compromise between tire wear and performance.

On the SS 1LE and ZL1, the front wheels (10"wide with 20mm offset) causes a positive scrub on the tire (inside of tire). I would assume the ZL1 1LE is the same or more-so and an SS of LT/LS car close to zero. I'm talking factory wheel specs here. You can see this for yourself - clean off you front tires, roll onto a lightly dirty, flat surface and turn your car's steering wheel through it's full rotation. Roll the car back and look at the tire contact patch.

Negative toe, negative camber and positive scrub up front = a recipe for highly accelerated wear to the inside of the tire.
Zero toe, negative camber and positive scrub up front = a recipe for lesser accelerated wear to the inside of the tire.
Toe is a very significant component to tire wear.

Can you explain how the wheel width and offset impact the positive scrub behavior? I'm guessing that a narrower wheel and lower offset (more fender poke) would both minimize scrub? Also curious how spacers and caster impact it.

[TRZ06]

Originally Posted by Mountain

From my experience on the 6th Gen Camaro platform, around -2.5 camber up front is a sweet spot. Wear isn't terrible on the street and gives a pretty good wear pattern and contact patch on track.

I run -2.7 and am pretty happy with that on the SS 1LE on-track. I think -3.0 would be great on-track, but I can see, though, from looking at my tire's inside edge after street driving on -2.7 that I am running on the very edge of the inside tread.

I ran approximately -2 in my 2016 SS and a friend runs about that in his SS. From my observations in on-track tire wear, I suggest going more up front.

I tend to agree with this. I am at -2.3 F -1.5 rear and its good.

I used to be at -2.5 front and that was even better, but I wasn't able to maintain the toe settings at -2.5, so I went back down to -2.3

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by R3ctivision

Can you explain how the wheel width and offset impact the positive scrub behavior? I'm guessing that a narrower wheel and lower offset (more fender poke) would both minimize scrub? Also curious how spacers and caster impact it.

Basically, scrub radius is the offset/distance between the theoretical "steering axis" line and the theoretical centerline of the wheel, measured at the road surface. In regards to wheel and tire specs, changes can have an affect on either where the wheel centerline is (width or offset) or where the "steering axis" line touches the road (diameter), or both.

EDIT: I want to add that there are dynamic reason for non-neutral/non-zero scrub, so don't look at non-zero scrub as "bad" and seek to neutralize it from a wear standpoint.

Sometimes pictures are better than words:

[weemus]

Last weekend, by my own shortsightedness, I ran out of tire while at Atlanta Motorsports Park (AMP). I had higher wear on the inner fronts than I saw as I missed a spot already starting to cord. I knew this weekend was it for the tires but I thought I would make it through. Anyway I saw that it wasn’t meant to be and hooked up with Race Analytics to flip the tires on the rim. The tire was smooth on the outside and not tracking or driving in the rain so no major concerns. I was surprised by what I felt. There was zero difference. So if you do run aggressive camber or toe out and don’t daily in rain you can flip the tires for maximum usage. Cost to flip was $50 trackside and helped me finish the day.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by weemus

This is a bit of a read for the geeky but I would mention that toe out does help with high speed stability and maximum cornering ability. So the argument to go to zero toe is purely to keep consumables to minimum.
So its more a question on what is lost in order to maximize tire life. I'm not taking about radical changes but some turn in and high speed mid corner feel.

https://www.me.ua.edu/me364/PDF/Steering_Ackerman.pdf

Basically a F toe out will make a car a bit looser. It will make a car less stable at high speeds and under hard braking, but will make it more responsive - especially - during initial turn in.

F toe in will make a car a bit tighter overall, so more stable at high speed and especially under hard braking.
But a wee bit more sluggish on turn in.

In high speed corners one wants the car to take set (and be on a throttle) before an apex, so not sure that toe plays a big role here per se.

Speaking of an SS 1LE specifically (bone stock with 2.6F and 1.6R camber) ive run my 17 with F toe out, but currently running my 20 with zero F toe and can't really tell a balance difference on turn in. But the car is more stable under hard braking. So, in my case, i do prefer a zero F toe. Plus a tire wear benefit to boot. Cheers!

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Basically a F toe out will make a car a bit looser. It will make a car less stable at high speeds and under hard braking, but will make it more responsive - especially - during initial turn in.

F toe in will make a car a bit tighter overall, so more stable at high speed and especially under hard braking.
But a wee bit more sluggish on turn in.

In high speed corners one wants the car to take set (and be on a throttle) before an apex, so not sure that toe plays a big role here per se.

Speaking of an SS 1LE specifically (bone stock with 2.6F and 1.6R camber) ive run my 17 with F toe out, but currently running my 20 with zero F toe and can't really tell a balance difference on turn in. But the car is more stable under hard braking. So, in my case, i do prefer a zero F toe. Plus a tire wear benefit to boot. Cheers!

Makes sense if you consider the scrub on the SS 1LE, where, under braking, the front wheels will tend to toe-out a bit anyway.

But same here: I've run minor toe out before, something between 1/16 and 1/8, and switched to zero without much notice in the car's ability in respect to steering input response. Never seemed to have an issue with braking stability in either case as well though.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Makes sense if you consider the scrub on the SS 1LE, where, under braking, the front wheels will tend to toe-out a bit anyway.

But same here: I've run minor toe out before, something between 1/16 and 1/8, and switched to zero without much notice in the car's ability in respect to steering input response. Never seemed to have an issue with braking stability in either case as well though.

I did notice the car being a bit more stable under hard braking, but like you, zero difference regarding having to dial in more steering on entry. Chock it up to 1LE superb balance...Having said that, i now track with steering in Track Mode, so it is a bit heavier (likely a software glitch, but no energy left after troubleshooting my LR alignment issue and surprisingly i dont mind less assist on track). Cheers!

[kropscamaro16]

going to get new tires put on this weekend and my spl toe rods gonna see if i can get some more camber in the front what are you guys running for camber in rear -1.5 ?

[Val Walkinshaw]

-2.5 up front.
-2 rear
Stock SS