[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I hear (and respect) you, Norm, loud and clear.

There is no stopping the progress of technology, but what we should make sure is that we don't lose what's valuable in the process, which IMO is us being in control of tech instead of the other way around. That is my main beef with electric cars, by the way, not their "new" drivetrain (that is actually older than the internal combustion engine). Interestingly, a similar observation can easily be made even in my field of computer science & engineering, but I will not digress here.

Purely mechanical linkages are very limited, be it for fuel injection, throttle control, gear selection, braking or even mundane things like window operation. Are you saying you prefer a 100% mechanical approach to everything in the car? I'm genuinely curious, the question isn't to mess with ya

I will answer with my take, from the driver's seat

FI really has no impact so to speak
Gear selection using 3 peddles has a huge impact
Drive by wire has a huge impact - it sucked bad at first and people are still buying things like peddle commander to help "fix it"
Power windows for me is not a lazy thing. It is I cannot reach across the car to get to them safely while moving. I would take the weight savings, even though it would not put a dent in my current car's weight
Steer by wire has the same effect as drive by wire - numbness
Are there any wire only braking systems in non EV cars?

[zaimer]

No debate - I would take manual any day of the week. If the option is there, I typically don't even consider an automatic. I had the M6 in my 2SS and my car now has the 8 speed auto. Yes, it is a great transmission and it can shift faster than I could dream of a manual gearbox to be. I prefer the engagement of the manual and the accelerations, etc. are just more dramatic with you have to go through the gears.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

I will answer with my take, from the driver's seat

FI really has no impact so to speak
Gear selection using 3 peddles has a huge impact
Drive by wire has a huge impact - it sucked bad at first and people are still buying things like peddle commander to help "fix it"
Power windows for me is not a lazy thing. It is I cannot reach across the car to get to them safely while moving. I would take the weight savings, even though it would not put a dent in my current car's weight
Steer by wire has the same effect as drive by wire - numbness
Are there any wire only braking systems in non EV cars?

Thanks, these are very good points. Brake by wire is not yet a thing for the average car, but it's coming: https://www.brembo.com/en/car/origin.../brake-by-wire

Let me just take one of your examples, drive by wire, because it illustrates what I meant to say very well. It absolutely does NOT have to suck, even I can design one that you will not be able to distinguish from a cable driven throttle opening mechanism. It can respond quickly, its characteristics can match that of a cable almost 100%, to the point that a human will feel zero difference, even pedal resistance can be just like a mechanical counterpart.

The great thing about it is that it doesn't have to. You now have a computer between you and the throttle blade that can be told to do anything you want or need—wifey isn't confident with your 455-650-800 hp car but you need her to drive because there is an emergency? she can have the sluggish throttle that keeps her out of the ditch; you want a little more touchy feel so when you breathe on the pedal, the car jumps like a scalded dog? no problem, you now have a computer you can tell what to do, etc. In my scenarios, the computer is your slave and not the other way around, and THAT is what's worth fighting for IMO.

Now, of course one can say f*** all that, I'll just take the mechanical, "one way or the highway" approach and all these other scenarios be damned, but let's be honest, it isn't superior or even progressive (although that word has been bastardized beyond recognition, sadly). And this is where my point about preserving what is valuable comes in.

[redcoats1976]

so a lot of people want to go back to the days of 4 speed manual trans,4 barrell carbs,and either 4 wheel drum or just front disc brakes? im sorry but my 6 cylinder automatic late model is faster,safer,and more efficient.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

so a lot of people want to go back to the days of 4 speed manual trans,4 barrell carbs,and either 4 wheel drum or just front disc brakes? im sorry but my 6 cylinder automatic late model is faster,safer,and more efficient.

Funny, that is what the EV crowd is saying about the EV.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

so a lot of people want to go back to the days of 4 speed manual trans,4 barrell carbs,and either 4 wheel drum or just front disc brakes? im sorry but my 6 cylinder automatic late model is faster,safer,and more efficient.

Yea, Your Camaro is faster, handles way better, stops faster, and is far safer than almost all of the muscle cars in the car auctions.

Still I like the M6 in all 6th gen V8 Camaros. It is light years above any 4 speed from back in the day.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

I hear (and respect) you, Norm, loud and clear.

There is no stopping the progress of technology, but what we should make sure is that we don't lose what's valuable in the process, which IMO is us being in control of tech instead of the other way around. That is my main beef with electric cars, by the way, not their "new" drivetrain (that is actually older than the internal combustion engine). Interestingly, a similar observation can easily be made even in my field of computer science & engineering, but I will not digress here.

Purely mechanical linkages are very limited, be it for fuel injection, throttle control, gear selection, braking or even mundane things like window operation.

Not necessarily everything. But certainly for the things that I can control in real time without any form of assistance. Especially assistances defined and programmed by somebody else, who most likely does not drive the same way(s) as I would under identical circumstances.

I'd still be fine with a purely mechanical throttle and better than just OK with brakes that don't try to do anything for me (in a same-day lap time comparison between having the ABS on my GT inop vs operating properly, I actually turned better lap times with it inop, though with slightly less consistency . . . so ABS isn't exactly helping me even when using the brakes really hard).

I'm fine with getting help with engine fueling and ignition - even back in the days of carburetors and points ignitions/magnetos those were tasks that were done for you; you just had to be able to feel what you could do/get away with doing. There's a definite reward when you do get it right, and if you're not seeing getting it a bit wrong as incentive to get better the next time I don't know what to say about that as a driver's attitude.

I think at most, you had to deal with a manual choke for starting and warmup purposes.


Norm

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Only performance auto I will own is a dedicated 1/4 mile vehicle that runs 9's or quicker.

But where can you use that car? 9s without a cage will get you kicked out of most drag strips. But I bet it is a thrill ride!

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

You've got computerized 'Drive Modes', no?

I want my "drive modes" to be 100% the way I want to be driving my car at any given moment, without having to relay that to my car through any electronics or have my intentions seen by my car through a filter that was developed by somebody else.

You may never notice, let alone be annoyed by, automated shifts that happen too late or too soon for the way you're driving (again, at any given moment). I always will.


Norm

And that's very true. Adjusting automatic transmission logic can be a pain on the fly. In daily driving, I often just have a short burst of sporty shifting before instantly adjusting to the more economical shifting pattern. Just feels awkward to shift between Touring and Sport logic if it is an A8/A10.

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Thanks, these are very good points. Brake by wire is not yet a thing for the average car, but it's coming: https://www.brembo.com/en/car/origin.../brake-by-wire

Let me just take one of your examples, drive by wire, because it illustrates what I meant to say very well. It absolutely does NOT have to suck, even I can design one that you will not be able to distinguish from a cable driven throttle opening mechanism. It can respond quickly, its characteristics can match that of a cable almost 100%, to the point that a human will feel zero difference, even pedal resistance can be just like a mechanical counterpart.

The great thing about it is that it doesn't have to. You now have a computer between you and the throttle blade that can be told to do anything you want or need—wifey isn't confident with your 455-650-800 hp car but you need her to drive because there is an emergency? she can have the sluggish throttle that keeps her out of the ditch; you want a little more touchy feel so when you breathe on the pedal, the car jumps like a scalded dog? no problem, you now have a computer you can tell what to do, etc. In my scenarios, the computer is your slave and not the other way around, and THAT is what's worth fighting for IMO.

Now, of course one can say f*** all that, I'll just take the mechanical, "one way or the highway" approach and all these other scenarios be damned, but let's be honest, it isn't superior or even progressive (although that word has been bastardized beyond recognition, sadly). And this is where my point about preserving what is valuable comes in.

I actually like DBW. The only mechanical throttle I owned sucked. Granted, it was an old Corolla with almost 320k km or 200k miles on the clock, but the cable was loose and I had to adjust it to the tightest possible to get it to feel okay to me, and that cable is likely stretched with use and would need to be replaced.

I personally don't get the fascination with it. The instantaneous feedback isn't worth it for the highly non-linear relationship between throttle input and power output, so 50% throttle isn't 50% of the available power, it's something more like 80% so the last half of throttle travel doesn't do much. DBW allows the synchronization of throttle and power. 50% throttle means 50% of all available power. Sounds good to me.

Also, consider that things like launch control and Active Rev Match just are not possible with the cable throttle, I will gladly pass on the cable throttle.

That said, I think manual trans has a significant share of enthusiasts to keep it going, especially when you look outside of North America where manual and auto trans have different licenses and the manual license is treated as a "man card". I actually wasn't sure if I am gonna like driving a stick and learned to drive one just so I have the skill, but turns out I love it.

I personally think it is like retro gaming and vinyl records(to a lesser extent since vinyl does have some objective advantages), they are old technologies, but enough people love them to keep them going.

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

so a lot of people want to go back to the days of 4 speed manual trans,4 barrell carbs,and either 4 wheel drum or just front disc brakes? im sorry but my 6 cylinder automatic late model is faster,safer,and more efficient.

I would not daily in an old car like that, but it would be interesting to try out a car like that.

Driving my friend's 1990 NA Miata was pretty fun. It was a very mechanical and analog feeling that feels endearing to me. It's not quite archaic as you have described, but it's definitely fun to try out an old sports car.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Twizzty

Dam Norm I didn't know you were over here also...and fighting for the manual man I see as always. Well it must have worked on me listening to you for the last 3 years of my A10 Mustang ownership because here I am now in a manual 1SS 1LE.

Keep up the good work Norm and know you're making a difference!

Actually, I was on Camaro5.com about a year sooner than I joined M6G. I've been on various Camaro and Mustang forums for right around 20 years (off the top of my head, CamaroZ28.com, Thirdgen.org, Corral, Corner-Carvers (mostly Mustang-oriented).

There's a little backstory about how I got to M6G from Camaro5, and just to see who's paying attention (and been around Camaro5 long enough) it involved a member part of whose username was the small solid form of many pharmaceuticals and dietary supplements.

For me, it's about the cars, and sometimes about ideas that I might be able to borrow from cars other than the ones I might happen to own. Like the fitment of 285/35 tires to 11" wide wheels, which in part came from what Chevy put on the 5th gen 1LE (I did all four corners on my GT up that way, not just the rears, but the idea was at least suggested by Camaro5).

A little closer to the topic of this thread, I'm exactly the kind of guy who could and would have daily-driven a 5th gen Z/28. Just add the HVAC (heat stress reasons) and the basic sound system. If you search long enough over on Camaro5.com, you'll even find where I posted as much.


Norm

[s2mikey]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

so a lot of people want to go back to the days of 4 speed manual trans,4 barrell carbs,and either 4 wheel drum or just front disc brakes? im sorry but my 6 cylinder automatic late model is faster,safer,and more efficient.

Ouch! Thats a little extreme, IMO. Just because some of us prefer manual transmissions & perhaps a few less things being run by the Computor doesnt mean we want an Amish Ox Cart as our daily driver or sports car. Lets be reasonable here!

Things like Fuel injection and disc brakes all-around are no brainer upgrades and quite desirable. So are some other innovative things that have come our way. But, it aint all good. Like, how about stupid emissions crap? Like my buddy says: Your car has a "Check Wallet" light now and thats what it may as well say on the dash. Oh, the finnuzle valve speed sensor went bad. It requires removal of the entire interior to get at. Part is $17 dollars, labor is $1700. That kind of crap. You know what I mean here. I'd also argue that we should have easy control over our cars settings as far as performance goes. It shouldnt have to go to an expensive "tuner guy" or have to by "by-passed" by some digital witchcraft. You should able to connect to most of your cars basic performance settings and tweak them using your iPad and a bluetooth connection. Stuff like that.

The thread was comparing an Auto to the MT choice for the Camaro. If thats the discussion then Im on the side of the MT. Every time.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

But where can you use that car? 9s without a cage will get you kicked out of most drag strips. But I bet it is a thrill ride!

Only at the track, which is exactly why I said dedicated. An auto in any other scenario is boring for me (please note, my specific opinion, yours may vary and I accept that). The reason I stipulated a track vehicle - traction/track prep.

Oh and the V6 car posted earlier can try to keep up to my 63 Carb'd dinosaur in any track scenario - LOL

[cthulhucaller]

I did my 15 years in Atlanta traffic driving manual Camaros and Corvettes, but will be sticking with auto from now on. If you're "not feeling engaged", you're not hitting corners fast enough.

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

I did my 15 years in Atlanta traffic driving manual Camaros and Corvettes, but will be sticking with auto from now on. If you're "not feeling engaged", you're not hitting corners fast enough.

How engaged can you be in Atlanta traffic? I don't blame you if you do that drive every day. I can't stand driving through Atlanta in any car.