[Blazin383]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

THIS is my point and it's 100% accurate.
This is why the Camaro designer FAILED.
He told me to my face he could not deliver a both good looks and good visibility. That is plain incompetence.
Blaming the failure on the demands of "camaro fans" was just insult on top of injury.
I'm a "camaro fan". I've owned Z28's since 1993. I wanted a GREAT car, and not a look the designer ASSUMED I wanted, or was willing to give up visibility and utility for.




Americans buying imports is one of the reasons why you're 401k looks like it does.......if you even have one.
Should I start making contributions to ISIS next? (shaking my head)

I'm guessing that, if you really did have a face to face with a GM design engineer, you demonstrated the same arrogance and .... I'm smarter than all the GM engineers... attitude that you've shared in this thread and he got sick of listening to you, hence his suggestion that you run down to the Porsche store where all is wonderful. Btw, I find your constant inference that you are the only patriot on the forum insulting. I suggest you whip up that Alpha chassis SS design and send it off to GM for immediate implementation so you don't have to get in bed with the Germans!

[Karma81]

Originally Posted by Modshack

Well duh...I've had 6 911's from '67 to '95. They have great visibility, but they are very different cars..

Sorry Dude, thats why I asked..never driven one.

[Modshack]

Originally Posted by Karma81

Sorry Dude, thats why I asked..never driven one.

Ah, No problem. I should have left off the Duh...

[ChefBorOzzy]

I honestly think this guy is simply a troll..

He makes no sense whatsoever. If you absolutely hate IT, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY. THAT'S YOUR VOTE SAYING IT'S GOOD ENOUGH.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by Techn9cian805

it's a bearable issue, for us owners. for others, it might be a turn off. an issue is an issue, no sense in trying to downplay it.

I don't disagree that it can be approved, I wish it was better actually BUT, I don't believe, IMHO that it is a reason that someone would test drive the car and then not buy it.

All of those reviews may start with the notation that the viability is not great, and it isn't, but every one I have seen also notes that it is a beautiful car that handles and drives great and then highly recommends it.

It is just a design decision that I am fine with and I understand that others are not but those people are sending the wrong message when they buy one and then whine that it is completely unacceptable.

[Karma81]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

I honestly think this guy is simply a troll..

He makes no sense whatsoever. If you absolutely hate IT, DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY. THAT'S YOUR VOTE SAYING IT'S GOOD ENOUGH.

Your missing the point...If he didnt buy a Camaro the American economy would collapse LOL!

[ChefBorOzzy]

Originally Posted by merlin803

I don't disagree that it can be approved, I wish it was better actually BUT, I don't believe, IMHO that it is a reason that someone would drive the test car and then not buy it.

All of those reviews may start with the notation that the viability is not great, and it isn't, but every one I have seen also notes that it is a beautiful car that handles and drives great and then highly recommends it.

It is just a design decision that I am fine with and I understand that others are not but those people are sending the wrong message when they buy one and then whine that it is completely unacceptable.

Most people don't test dive a car for hours though.. I drove a 2012 and didn't like being inside it. Didn't buy it... That was a 10-15 minute drive and I was coming from a 2012 Subaru with amazing visibility.

[Modshack]

Originally Posted by merlin803

It is just a design decision that I am fine with and I understand that others are not but those people are sending the wrong message when they buy one and then whine that it is completely unacceptable.

That sort of sums it up. The success or failure of the Gen6 over time is yet to be determined. The Gen5 had lots of flaws but sold very well over it's run. I'm a conquest sale....I NEVER even looked at or considered a Camaro until they did what they did to the Gen6

[cellsafemode]

armchair car designers aside, it's not like GM doesn't pay companies to do studies on existing owners, prospective owners etc on what they do and dont like about current or potential versions of any given car. Then once it's made the public communicates if they like it with their wallet. So far the message received seems to be that visibility is not bad enough to keep people who are the demographic for camaros from buying one and that they didn't prefer changing the car to increase visibility over maintaining the current look.

Not sure how that can be justified as a fail. It's what people want given all the other required aspects that need to exist in the car these days at the price point they have set on. People aren't clamoring for a 3rd gen or 4th gen, they want a 5th gen refresh that is faster and better than a mustang and GM has to provide that while still maintaining federal safety laws, new environmental laws and cost of manufacture.

If it's that big of a deal you can not buy it. My 3rd and 4th had better visibility but choosing the 6th over them is a no-brainer, i still see fine and a lot of the visual obstructions to the rear and A pillar existed then too. meh.

[merlin803]

Originally Posted by ChefBorOzzy

Most people don't test dive a car for hours though.. I drove a 2012 and didn't like being inside it. Didn't buy it... That was a 10-15 minute drive and I was coming from a 2012 Subaru with amazing visibility.

Understood. I don't doubt that it may be a deciding factor for some but on the other hand, I test drove my first 5th Gen for under 15 minutes and it wasn't an issue at all and apparently the feedback that GM has received is that the majority (and apparently even those that do have a major problem with it.....who still bought one) have spoken and it is preferred to changing the styling.

[Karma81]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

When did I insinuate that most, if not the overwhelming majority, of forum members aren't patriots? I believe the opposite.
But, I feel that any post that suggests I support the German economy instead of calling for Chevrolet to fast track a Alpha SS Sedan, are stupid at best, and unpatriotic at worst.

The REAL arrogance is top GM executives belittling loyal buyers to their face for wanting decent visibility and utility.

Do you think Bob Lutz would display such hubris and stupidity in a face to face conversation with long time high MSRP Corvette/SUV buyers like me?

I said designer, not engineer.
Ironically, the designer was annoyed when called an engineer.
And, since you insinuated it, maybe I AM smarter since I understand these BASIC concepts that were ignored by the Camaro designer.

And to all the guys cracking jokes against me and claiming GM did their market research, check the latest 2016 sales figures.

Bottom line.
I love America, GM, pushrod V8's, and a performance transmission combined in a car with good performance and visibility/utility.
Chevy needs to fast track a Alpha SS Sedan offering all of the above with a Camaro MSRP ASAP.

Just out of curiousity, did you call the Designer a ISIS sympathizer too?

[The_Driver]

There are some compromises with the 6th gen regarding interior room, but this is due to the Alpha sedan platform that it is based upon. For instance, the rear seat legroom and headroom is lacking compared to the 5thgen. I sat in the back of a 6th gen and the room in the backseat was practically non existant. A major issue is that I had to scrunch down and tilt my head to the side to sit back there. I'm just under 6ft tall, but I can sit upright without scrunching down or tilting my head in the back of a 3rd gen or 4th gen. And, those cars had a rather compact sportscar-like 101" wheelbase, not the midsized car like 110" wb of the 6th gen. So, I blame the engineers for locating the fuel tank under rear seat instead of over the rear axle like it was on the 3rd and 4th gens.

On the 6th gen, they lowered the height of the roof to retain the classic greenhouse of the 5th gen, but the shorter wheelbase combined with what I perceive is a slightly raised floor pan and or rear seat bottom compounds the issue. In other words, the shorter wheelbase with the lowered roof height makes the rear seat no fun in the 6th gen. And, the slightly shorter wheelbase is taken directly from the rear seat H-point to rear axle centerline. Exactly where you don't want to take room from if you want to retain 5th gen like rear seat dimensions.

In regards to the rather limited view out the rear window. Well, it wouldn't so bad if they didn't design the rear package shelf to have such a bulge in it. If the panel was flatter, it would create more room under the rear window and not be so hard to see out of it. In fact, I even tried to get my hand back there, as if to clean the rear window, and I couldn't do it. I don't know how 6th gen owners are going to clean the inside of their rear windows. I blame the interior designers for this. The rear package shelf was designed with that bulge in it to make the rear window look more like a narrow fastback from inside the car.

[jamh0619]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

I'm the 2016 SS owner that you just described.
But, you're the guy missing this basic FACT:

The designer FAILED with the 2016 Camaro.

When you talk face-to-face with the designer, he freely admits he was unable to deliver good visibility/utility.
That's just plain incompetence.
A GREAT CAR delivers good visibility, utility, comfort, and looks with NO EXCUSES.
When I politely, but firmly, stated this fact, he blamed his failure on the "camaro fans" who demanded a "camaro look".
That's just plain BS.
If you disagree, go test drive a Cadillac ATS today that shares the same chassis and get back to us.

GM fans like me who have been buying V8 stickshifts from GM for the last 3 decades may, or may not, continue to buy.
But, GM needs to be INCREASING MARKET SHARE by delivering GREAT cars that are appealing to ALL potential customers,
and stop focusing solely on what the designers/engineers ASSUME the "camaro/corvette faithful" want.
This is Business 101.

A GREAT CAR delivers good visibility, utility, comfort, and looks with NO EXCUSES.

Build a GREAT car, and it will sell.
Offer a pushrod V8 combined with a performance transmission in a GREAT car, and the "camaro/corvette fans" will buy it.
I know that I will.


The $xxx,xxx that I have spent on GM vehicles in just the last few years proves that I am a GM fan.
But, the blind fan boy defensiveness of many in the GM community does everyone a disservice, it's transparent, and it's just annoyingly pathetic.

GM needs to continue to improve and deliver GREAT cars without excuses, or my 2016 Camaro SS will be my last GM purchase after being a loyal new GM buyer for 3 decades.
I'm hoping that GM fast tracks a Alpha SS Sedan to be made available ASAP with a base MSRP comparable with a 1SS.
If so, I will trade my 2016 Camaro SS for one ASAP.

well said.

Ill be in the market very soon for an American v8 coupe. Camaro is on the top then Mustang. I really love the Camaro specs, but the lack of space in the rear seat and trunk is something that have me thinking. i remember that someone said here that the mustang interior was cheap, and went to an auto show the other day and let me tell you that the interior fells better quality(soft touch materials) and the seats are more comfortable than the camaro(and my wife agreed), but the Camaro looks and fell more agressive.
It a very hard decision for me.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

With all due respect, wrong.
Go test a Cadillac ATS and you'll see that the Camaro designer ruined the visibility and utility.

Wrong, they camarofied the alpha platform and left pretend back seats to lower insurance in an otherwise 2 seater car. With the vast number of camaro drivers fine with that.

if you want an ATS with more rear visibility, they do sell an ATS.