[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by newb

But I think at this point BMW doesn't give a rats ass about the performance enthusiast. Clearly there about the bottom line, and as long as the bottom line hasn't changed they are happy. Much like Honda went through the same thing. Until the bottom line changed they didn't care about dropping performance models or the performance quality of their cars. Sad but true

100% in agreement. They are making more money than before...they are happy.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Back to the "cost of the Camaro"....

How do people's feelings change when the idea is introduced that an "80-100k Camaro" isn't built for volume and sales,...but as a test bed for technology and bragging rights for performance?

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You missed my point. BMW is not loosing sales so to speak, they are loosing enthusiasts. I was only speaking to the people who look for the Msport and M verisons. Not base turbo 4 3,4, and 5 series. Those cars are attracting the status seekers and numb ride seekers (old Caddy owners for one). You can go to any of their new model forums and find complaints about how they don't build the ultimate driving machine anymore. This applies only to those looking for that kind of car, not the status symbol seekers. Realistically we know that is a tiny portion of their buyers. So not arguing that the vast majority of prospective BMW buyers never consider a domestic. But their former enthusiasts certainly do. And anyone who thinks otherwise hasn't spent enough time on their boards.

No, I got your point and there is a lot of validity to it. And no, BMW does not build the 'ultimate driving machine' when it comes to real world performance.

But their buyers do not care. It is a BMW. It is a brand with status and even some performance buyers buy the BMW because, well, because it is a BMW. Not savvy, performance, 10/10ths drivers/buyers. But some do. Ask most any car buyer and most will say that their perception is that BMW is a 'step up'; an 'I made it!' symbol.

And for those people (and a lot of the world, including some performance buyers) having an M4 is 'better' than having a ZL1. Same thing for an Audi S5 or RS7. Or maybe a Cayman GT4. And ad infinitum...

Some things just never change. That is their perception; therefore, that is their 'reality'. They may very well get passed or beaten by a Shelby or a Hellcat, or a Z/28 - but they are still driving their 'Por-sha'.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Back to the "cost of the Camaro"....

How do people's feelings change when the idea is introduced that an "80-100k Camaro" isn't built for volume and sales,...but as a test bed for technology and bragging rights for performance?

I admire the technology, but I think it violates the spirit that the Camaro was originally born with and was supposed to continue. Even adjusted for inflation a 1969 ZL1 was "only" $47,000..

I guess I would feel the same way about a $50,000 VW Beetle or something.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Back to the "cost of the Camaro"....

How do people's feelings change when the idea is introduced that an "80-100k Camaro" isn't built for volume and sales,...but as a test bed for technology and bragging rights for performance?

It is 100% guaranteed that an '$80k-$100k Camaro will be extremely low volume sales.

The $75K low volume Z/28 still languishes on lots and it's a superb track car with enormous bragging rights.

But win on Sunday and sell on Monday doesn't seem to fly anymore. It's more about WiFi and a sunroof it seems.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Raven87

It is 100% guaranteed that an '$80k-$100k Camaro will be extremely low volume sales.

The $75K low volume Z/28 still languishes on lots and it's a superb track car with enormous bragging rights.

But win on Sunday and sell on Monday doesn't seem to fly anymore. It's more about WiFi and a sunroof it seems.

Right, but FCA only sell 50 or so Vipers a month, and that's an entire car line. What if they priced and produced a track-only Camaro to sell 25 units a month? They can sell 300 of them a year, I'm sure...and it gets the car into magazines, and into conversations, etc.....sunroofs and Wifi might be what people BUY...but it's not what they talk about. And the talking gets other buying...

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I admire the technology, but I think it violates the spirit that the Camaro was originally born with and was supposed to continue. Even adjusted for inflation a 1969 ZL1 was "only" $47,000..

I guess I would feel the same way about a $50,000 VW Beetle or something.

But even inflation doesn't really tell the story there since there are plenty of $47k MSRP Camaros being sold today. The times are very different now from then.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Back to the "cost of the Camaro"....

How do people's feelings change when the idea is introduced that an "80-100k Camaro" isn't built for volume and sales,...but as a test bed for technology and bragging rights for performance?

Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. Me personally, I don't think the Camaro (or mustang or Challenger) has any business being in that kind of price range.

I also get that its just a halo model, sell maybe 1500 or 2000 a year if that, so big picture its not that big of a deal. I also get that hopefully the tech will trickle down and then make the lower models better. I just don't see a market for an 80K + Camaro. Sorry I just can't picture a Camaro in the same price range as a Z06 Corvette or a Viper.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I admire the technology, but I think it violates the spirit that the Camaro was originally born with and was supposed to continue. Even adjusted for inflation a 1969 ZL1 was "only" $47,000..

I guess I would feel the same way about a $50,000 VW Beetle or something.

This ^ It might be one of the most bad ass, track focused, eat up the pavement cars ever built, but at the end of the day its still a Chevy/Ford/Dodge

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I also get that its just a halo model, sell maybe 1500 or 2000 a year if that, so big picture its not that big of a deal. I also get that hopefully the tech will trickle down and then make the lower models better. I just don't see a market for an 80K + Camaro. Sorry I just can't picture a Camaro in the same price range as a Z06 Corvette.

I'm sure someone said the same thing about the C7 ZO6. Don't forget, original ZO6s weren't at that kind of price point in the segment. And when it came back in '01, it wasn't either. Price points move relative to the performance of the day. But there is a point where the price to move the performance forward will move the car to a segment where it becomes completely unreasonable as a production car.

[Thor142]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Back to the "cost of the Camaro"....

How do people's feelings change when the idea is introduced that an "80-100k Camaro" isn't built for volume and sales,...but as a test bed for technology and bragging rights for performance?

Bragging rights like sitting on the lot brand new 3 years after it was parked there? I see what you're saying but I just don't think it's smart. People are gonna see the new Z with a $75-80k sticker and just say "I'll wait till the gen 7 comes out and these are all still sitting on the lots at 20K off.
At what point does your "halo" car miss the mark so completely on pricing it becomes the butt of jokes?

[Bhobbs]

The problem is people demand their Chevy/Dodge/Ford keep up with "insert European brand here" but then get upset when they have to pay for that kind of performance and say "it's just a Chevy".

You either get a competitive car with a decent interior and pay for it or you don't.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The problem is people demand their Chevy/Dodge/Ford keep up with "insert European brand here" but then get upset when they have to pay for that kind of performance and say "it's just a Chevy".

You either get a competitive car with a decent interior and pay for it or you don't.

True, but we are also talking about a car that may not have A/C standard, or no tech options.(if it follows the 5th gen formula)

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True, but we are also talking about a car that may not have A/C standard, or no tech options.(if it follows the 5th gen formula)

We're also talking about a car that will come with standard CCBs, possibly carbon wheels with barely street legal racing tires, insane aero and possibly a unique engine.

At the same price, you get a Z06 that is effectively a wide body Stingray with a blower and will weigh around 200 lbs of the Z/28.

To equip the Z06 to similar levels of performance equipment, you are pushing $110k.

[mkorgan]

I want the fastest possible Camaro. Period. As long as the price is justifiable against the current competition (not historical precedence), I could not care less the price they put on it.

Here is what I think the problem is.....if GM called the top dog performance Camaro the "Camaro R Type" (borrowing a Jaguar reference) then I think less people would care. BUT, because they want a Z/28, even though 90% of them will never track the car which is the intention of the Z/28, they get pissed off that they can't afford it, completely ignoring the purpose of the car and the UNDENIAL value the car offers in the segment it is meant to compete which is NOT the segment the SS sells into.

The Gen5 was a huge success for GM. The Q rating (look it up if you don't know what that means) for the Camaro has increased by double digits globally with the introduction of the Gen5 Z/28 which is very impressive for a brand approaching 50 years old. I have a very close friend who owns a Chevy dealership in south Florida who has a 2014 on his show room floor specifically to "sell the SS model". He told me that when he first got it he would have 25-30 people a week come into the dealership just to see the Z/28 and he would guess that 20% of them ended up buying a RS or SS based on the Z/28 getting them to the lot. He said the Z/28 on his floor has been the best advertising he has had in 32 years of owning the dealership. He said that the Z/28 has been incredibly successful for his dealership in selling the Camaro brand....the definition of a "halo" model. This is what everyone is missing. The Z/28 was about the "art of the possible" with the Camaro and sold many more cars just for the simple fact it showed what could be done with the platform.

I am astonished this community does not get it. On every statistical measurement within the marketing field, the Z/28 was a absolutely grand slam for GM in what it did to elevate the Camaro brand and sell the lower tier trims.