[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

And when the dummy who forgot he's got an SS drivetrain with a ZL1 motor does something foolish and breaks lots of expensive stuff not spec'd to the higher power at hand a week after taking delivery, is GM supposed to eat the cost of performing repairs under warranty

We are talking a FACTORY INSTALLED LT4/5 drive train like the 69 ZL1 had.

Again, why would GM send out a car that is going to cause warranty work, a bad reputation and probably a class action lawsuits? Or, they could sell them with no warranty like they did in 69...

Besides, aren't people currently getting LT4 power+ on their SS with a Maggie or Whipple?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

We are talking a FACTORY INSTALLED LT4/5 drive train like the 69 ZL1 had.

Again, why would GM send out a car that is going to cause warranty work, a bad reputation and probably a class action lawsuits? Or, they could sell them with no warranty like they did in 69...

Besides, aren't people currently getting LT4 power+ on their SS with a Maggie or Whipple?

Could you bullet point the specification you’d recommend for this "LT1" trim car with LT4? Transmission, rear end, brakes, tires, cooling...

• Would it be street legal?
• Would it have a warranty?
• What should it cost ...contrasting it to the ZL1 that already has the LT4?

We can ignore how many you could sell each year and the development cost.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Smart buy! With used 6th gen ZL1s changing hands now for under $50K. Does a $50K SS even make sense at all?

And as a performance car the LT1 is every bit the performance car the SS is. It is only missing track cooling, tires, and the SS braking in a track session will fade a little less. And what percentage of SSes ever see any kind of track?

It is a shame you need to pay for all that other stuff to get the bose head unit in a 2SS.

Oder guide says there is a package to get Bose in the LT-1. The tech package with the 8" screen I believe. The Bose in my 18 Silverado is ok, not sure if the Camaros is any better but if it's not I might not be to worried without it. Upgrade the speakers and move on.

Great to hear and see the LT-1 has active rev match. Order guide specifically says it doesn't have it.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Could you bullet point the specification you’d recommend for this "LT1" trim car with LT4? Transmission, rear end, brakes, tires, cooling...

• Would it be street legal?
• Would it have a warranty?
• What should it cost ...contrasting it to the ZL1 that already has the LT4?

We can ignore how many you could sell each year and the development cost.

As I, and may others have said before, it isn't going to happen. The original COPO ZL1's were a fluke. Fred Gibb found an opening in the ordering system and exploited it.

I do think it would be VERY easy for Chevy to make a 1LT-ZL1. There are no "development costs". Everything needed is in the part bins now.

1LT Body
LT4 Drivetrain
Brembo's front and back
Heavy duty radiator and engine oil cooler
Factory drag radials on the rear, stock tires up front (or ZL1 spec rubber)
heater/ac delete option
seat delete option
infotainment delete option

Other than that, all RPO's would be available.

Warranty? Standard warranty or no warranty.

I think if GM is willing to track warranty a ZL1, they could warranty this one.


Street legal? yes.

Current LT4's are, Demons are, sYc's are....


Cost? 50k range.

Why? All the parts are there, tested, and installed on this car. "Bolt it on and send it down the line" ready. You have a $34,995 LT1 now. Add 15k for the upgraded parts, going down the same assembly line and you're making money.

Sales? Tough to say.

It would be the fastest, cheapest muscle/pony car on the market. There seems to be a market for this type of car. It would definitely up the ante in the "horsepower war". It would take away Dodge's thunder, and put the "street buzz" around the Camaro.

Exactly how big the market is and how many other Camaro's it would help sale is anyone's guess.

Now, back to reality, Chevy isn't going to undercut their flagship ride with this one.

[Red Chief]

Originally Posted by Craig

I don’t think many of us here are average shoppers but different strokes for different folks I am the exact opposite, for me being over-engineered is a HUGE positive when it comes to performance cars and one of the first things I look for. If you get the mod bug then what’s enough today might not be tomorrow and it’s usually cheaper to buy more than what you think you need than it is to do additional upgrades later.

It goes without saying that most people on the Camaro forum do not represent the average shopper.

I just think everything the stock SS has that the LT1 doesn't should have been been factory options. I wouldn't be surprised if the LT1 ran circles around the base GT had it come out in the 2016 MY.

[Lazerbrainz2k3]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

As I, and may others have said before, it isn't going to happen. The original COPO ZL1's were a fluke. Fred Gibb found an opening in the ordering system and exploited it.

I do think it would be VERY easy for Chevy to make a 1LT-ZL1. There are no "development costs". Everything needed is in the part bins now.

1LT Body
LT4 Drivetrain
Brembo's front and back
Heavy duty radiator and engine oil cooler
Factory drag radials on the rear, stock tires up front (or ZL1 spec rubber)
heater/ac delete option
seat delete option
infotainment delete option

Other than that, all RPO's would be available.

Warranty? Standard warranty or no warranty.

I think if GM is willing to track warranty a ZL1, they could warranty this one.


Street legal? yes.

Current LT4's are, Demons are, sYc's are....


Cost? 50k range.

Why? All the parts are there, tested, and installed on this car. "Bolt it on and send it down the line" ready. You have a $34,995 LT1 now. Add 15k for the upgraded parts, going down the same assembly line and you're making money.

Sales? Tough to say.

It would be the fastest, cheapest muscle/pony car on the market. There seems to be a market for this type of car. It would definitely up the ante in the "horsepower war". It would take away Dodge's thunder, and put the "street buzz" around the Camaro.

Exactly how big the market is and how many other Camaro's it would help sale is anyone's guess.

Now, back to reality, Chevy isn't going to undercut their flagship ride with this one.

Where exactly are you coming up with the $15k or more in savings over the ZL1 here? You've got most of the expensive stuff included, meanwhile the cost delta between the different bodies and no 2LT/2SS interior bits don't add up to that number. There's only $3k between LT1 & 1SS, you're talking 5x that.

As for supercharged SS' existing, those aftermarket companies aren't spending tens of millions or more to ensure the total car package their superchargers are installed to last 100,000+ miles reliably, so with a healthy reserve of capability left in the drivetrain as all good conservative engineering practices require. You can't provide that dependability with an SS drivetrain, and a beefed up ZL1 drivetrain tailored to the LT4's power makes your intended price point unrealistic.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

Where exactly are you coming up with the $15k or more in savings over the ZL1 here? You've got most of the expensive stuff included, meanwhile the cost delta between the different bodies and no 2LT/2SS interior bits don't add up to that number. There's only $3k between LT1 & 1SS, you're talking 5x that. .

$35K for a base car body less drivetrain. A LT1 crate motor is 13K. A LT4 crate is 16K (retail) just 3k difference. Adding the rear end, brakes, rubber and cooling isn't 12K. Especially at the price GM buys parts for.


So to recap, subtracting the parts cost you're taking out and adding the new parts listed can't be done at the factory level for less than 15K? I'm willing to bet it could be done @ 5K.

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

As for supercharged SS' existing, those aftermarket companies aren't spending tens of millions or more to ensure the total car package their superchargers are installed to last 100,000+ miles reliably, so with a healthy reserve of capability left in the drivetrain as all good conservative engineering practices require.

So what you're trying to say is no one is buying or selling PD's for the SS model because of this?

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

You can't provide that dependability with an SS drivetrain, and a beefed up ZL1 drivetrain tailored to the LT4's power makes your intended price point unrealistic.

Meanwhile, the LT4 drivetrain has already done the testing mentioned above and is available in a parts bin on the assembly line right now. But it somehow isn't doable? Price point? See above....

[Lazerbrainz2k3]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

$35K for a base car body less drivetrain. A LT1 crate motor is 13K. A LT4 crate is 16K (retail) just 3k difference. Adding the rear end, brakes, rubber and cooling isn't 12K. Especially at the price GM buys parts for.


So to recap, subtracting the parts cost you're taking out and adding the new parts listed can't be done at the factory level for less than 15K? I'm willing to bet it could be done @ 5K.


Meanwhile, the LT4 drivetrain has already done the testing mentioned above and is available in a parts bin on the assembly line right now. But it somehow isn't doable? Price point? See above....

If all those ZL1 components could be put together that cheap, the ZL1 wouldn't cost what it does. Or GM is profiting significantly on each one, and if so why would that sacrifice that profit AND spend the money for the additional development costs to offer such a configuration (yes, there are such costs, and if you don't think so you don't know much about the kind of production environment a manufacturer like GM runs) all for a handful of buyers?

Originally Posted by 95 imp

So what you're trying to say is no one is buying or selling PD's for the SS model because of this?

What I'm saying is GM won't sell it to you in a street legal setup because they have a reliability reputation to maintain which doesn't play well with what you're proposing. If an individual SS owner decides to put a blower on their vehicle but not upgrade everything else to deal with the extra power, that's on the individual rather than GM when the thing fails spectacularly (possibly catastrophically, on a public road, with collateral damage), but putting GM on the hook is a terrible business decision.

You mentioned pseudo-Yenko before as an example of street legal performance upgrades. Instead of being mad that GM won't give you what you want, maybe you can set up your own company to take a 1LT body, SS drivetrain & suspension, and ZL1 engine and turn out a street legal product of your own. If you're right about the price involved and the legality of the end result, good business opportunity for you while letting GM run the way they want to.

[pyroguy]

Originally Posted by s346k

it sounds cool, but in all reality it would be another yenko failure and only be valuable due to limited production. the real world performance would be embarrassing at best on any 18”+ wheel gm can fit under the car.

The Yenko cars and COPO program wasn't a failure. In 1969 there were 427c.i. 425hp cars that were special order through COPO in cars smaller than an Impala. In 1970 GM lifted their ban on large displacement engines in smaller bodies thus eliminating the need for the COPO program for specialty performance vehicles. You could now go to your local dealer and order a Chevelle with a 454c.i. 450hp engine just by checking the box on the standard order sheet vs knowing the right dealer, knowing the super secret handshake, and paying someone off to look the other way in order to get that kind of performance.

Additionally, Chevy is now selling Weld racing wheels the GM Performance. I would venture to guess that a drag pack option on a LT4/5 beast would suffice to get the car down the track pretty darn quick with the right tire.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Could you bullet point the specification you’d recommend for this "LT1" trim car with LT4? Transmission, rear end, brakes, tires, cooling...

• Would it be street legal?
• Would it have a warranty?
• What should it cost ...contrasting it to the ZL1 that already has the LT4?

We can ignore how many you could sell each year and the development cost.

Street legal? Yes. The Demon is a street legal car and it has more power than the LT4 or LT5 engines.
Warranty? Why not? The Demon has the standard factory warranty.
Cost? Somewhere in the ball park of a ZL1 probably, but this would be more of a race ready car than a ZL1. This is Chevy's chance at a cult like following behind the Camaro like Dodge/SRT has behind the Demon. Besides, the Demon paved the way for the Hellcat Redeye, Widebody, and other improved models of the Challenger. Whose to say this wouldn't be the stepping stone for the ZL1 to get a LT5 or better? Now that Corvette has stepped aside to take the mid engine world by storm, lets bring on the reign of front engine rear wheel drive, muscle car dominance to Chevy! Oh and don't forget to MARKET THE CAR! Part of Dodge's success was that they built up hype over the Demon. By the time that the unveiled it people were foaming at the mouth to have one.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

If all those ZL1 components could be put together that cheap, the ZL1 wouldn't cost what it does. Or GM is profiting significantly on each one, and if so why would that sacrifice that profit AND spend the money for the additional development costs to offer such a configuration (yes, there are such costs, and if you don't think so you don't know much about the kind of production environment a manufacturer like GM runs) all for a handful of buyers?

They probably are making a killing on the ZL1. I don't know their profit margin and neither do you. I was asked a totally subjective question. You got my opinion based on known facts. If you don't like it, fine. Stop splitting hairs.

The only "development costs" that *might* occur are crash testing and EPA cert. Then again, it is a variant of an existing model, using an existing drivetrain, already installed in that specific vehicle. So it would *probably* fly.

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

What I'm saying is GM won't sell it to you in a street legal setup because they have a reliability reputation to maintain which doesn't play well with what you're proposing. If an individual SS owner decides to put a blower on their vehicle but not upgrade everything else to deal with the extra power, that's on the individual rather than GM when the thing fails spectacularly (possibly catastrophically, on a public road, with collateral damage), but putting GM on the hook is a terrible business decision.

Great logic. You make it sounds like the ZL1 is a time bomb waiting to go off. No one is talking about a SS, or SS parts, but you.

Originally Posted by Lazerbrainz2k3

You mentioned pseudo-Yenko before as an example of street legal performance upgrades. Instead of being mad that GM won't give you what you want, maybe you can set up your own company to take a 1LT body, SS drivetrain & suspension, and ZL1 engine and turn out a street legal product of your own. If you're right about the price involved and the legality of the end result, good business opportunity for you while letting GM run the way they want to.

The only ones mad here are you haters. You hate the fact that the LT1 is a cheaper car. You hate the fact that it is (slightly) faster than the 1SS. And you look for ANY excuse to say it is an inferior piece of junk. Now, you're pissed off at the thought of taking that concept one (logical) step further using factory available parts on the same assembly line.

Their are plenty of people doing the performance thing already. And you pay big money for it. The factory could do it a lot cheaper since they are building the car. (and already have proven, developed parts, that bolt in sitting right next to the v6 and i4 parts)

Everyone else is taking a car, "unbuilding it", then rebuilding it (at wholesale prices vs manufacturer pricing)


And, why in the world would you put the SS drivetrain behind a LT4? Especially since the LT4 parts are available in the factory pipeline.


Not once have I said that the LT4 go in front of the SS drivetrain, so why do you insist on going back to it in every post?

Hey! Here's a thought!

Let's put a diff and tranny cooler on it so you haters will fall in love with the idea.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Smart buy! With used 6th gen ZL1s changing hands now for under $50K. Does a $50K SS even make sense at all?

And as a performance car the LT1 is every bit the performance car the SS is. It is only missing track cooling, tires, and the SS braking in a track session will fade a little less. And what percentage of SSes ever see any kind of track?

It is a shame you need to pay for all that other stuff to get the bose head unit in a 2SS.

So it's missing a few components that make it less of a performance car? And are you sure the sway bars and suspension is tuned the same? Performance is more than just horsepower and straight line speed.

[LT4Greg]

The ZL1 is a specially designed package for the LT4 engine. The transmission is different as is the rear end with larger axles/differential, suspension pieces etc that the SS and LT-1 don’t have! It wouldn’t make financial or common sense for GM to offer that package to the SS or ZL1 when you can already get that in a ZL1. Could GM offer the ZL1 at a lower cost? Sure but they don’t so we don’t have any options to get the LT4 except in a ZL1! I understand what folks are saying here but with all the wishing in the world you won’t be able to get a Camaro like you want from GM unless you build one yourself!

[c4racer]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

The ZL1 is a specially designed package for the LT4 engine. The transmission is different as is the rear end with larger axles/differential, suspension pieces etc that the SS and LT-1 don’t have! It wouldn’t make financial or common sense for GM to offer that package to the SS or ZL1 when you can already get that in a ZL1. Could GM offer the ZL1 at a lower cost? Sure but they don’t so we don’t have any options to get the LT4 except in a ZL1! I understand what folks are saying here but with all the wishing in the world you won’t be able to get a Camaro like you want from GM unless you build one yourself!

I checked the PN's and the axles are the same between SS and ZL1 - FWIW.
Looks like the diff itself is different between Auto and manual, but the manual one is common to SS and ZL1.
Also with respect to the 6speed manual - same transmission used on both.

so it's the same exact driveline on a 6 speed car.

[LT4Greg]

Well alrighty then!