[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by reeper

I don't disagree with what you've stated but your talking about Trucks and SUV's where as I was discussing Camaros and Corvettes. When fuel prices rise do you see many jumping into a Camaro or Corvette? I sure don't. I see the cross-over market being big again though. I don't believe gas prices have a big impact on Camaro or Corvette sales especially in a somewhat stable economy.

There is an effect, but it's indirect.

Many people still (thankfully), a car/truck is an identity item...a way to express themselves through a purchase w/ color, style, modifications, status, etc...

Both trucks and sports cars share that role...and there are enough "swing buyers" who don't necessarily identify with either Mario Andretti, or Country Bill Highroller...that can choose between the two.

When gas prices are high, they are more inclined to opt for an expressive car as opposed to a truck...and the Camaro/Mustang offer that expression with a 28-31mpg sticker on *most* models.

[Aboynamedsue]

Originally Posted by hawk02

My daughter and her husband have two SUVs. Hauling small children around in car seats requires some space.

My two kids fit just fine back there.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

When gas prices are high, they are more inclined to opt for an expressive car as opposed to a truck...and the Camaro/Mustang offer that expression with a 28-31mpg sticker on *most* models.

Except the sales are being stolen not by traditional trucks, but by compact trucks and crossovers actually capable of more realistically hitting that 28-31 MPG number than a sports car can. I don't think the "expressive" folks who like lifted oversized trucks are the same demographic as those who buy compact trucks and crossovers. I can see a universal appeal, because compact trucks and crossovers just make a heck of a lot of sense right now and enable people to travel in freedom as a lifestyle choice without worrying about gas, room to park, or storage capacity.

You gotta admit, sports cars do create a ton of anxiety as roads get more crowded. America is headed the way of the Kei car, which Japan has had for decades. Pretty much all "full size" cars have been relegated to only big-time auto enthusiasts at this point in that country. For us, our "Kei cars" still have enough interior space to accommodate our fat America bodies. It's amazing what modern engineering can achieve to create a car that's small on the outside, big on the inside, and yet somehow still meets crash test requirements.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

You gotta admit, sports cars do create a ton of anxiety as roads get more crowded. America is headed the way of the Kei car, which Japan has had for decades. Pretty much all "full size" cars have been relegated to only big-time auto enthusiasts at this point in that country. For us, our "Kei cars" still have enough interior space to accommodate our fat America bodies.

Tons of anxiety? Why?

I think people overthink some things...(not you, just in general)...a sports car, especially a I4 and V6 models of today...are slightly quicker, much better looking, slightly less practical versions of every other car.

Style is cited as one of the #1 reasons for purchasing a car over another...

[reeper]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

There is an effect, but it's indirect.

Many people still (thankfully), a car/truck is an identity item...a way to express themselves through a purchase w/ color, style, modifications, status, etc...

Both trucks and sports cars share that role...and there are enough "swing buyers" who don't necessarily identify with either Mario Andretti, or Country Bill Highroller...that can choose between the two.

When gas prices are high, they are more inclined to opt for an expressive car as opposed to a truck...and the Camaro/Mustang offer that expression with a 28-31mpg sticker on *most* models.

Fair point but remember there is a cost to 'expression'. In the case of Camaro or vette the cost is usually another more practical vehicle. A truck or SUV have both the expression AND practicality factor built in whereby that buyer kind of gets the best of both worlds.

I'm a bit of a split identity myself as I have a pair of performance vehicles and a lifted 3/4 ton Duramax :-) Factually speaking there are many days all three never get out of the garage, even when they aren't parked for the winter, and the family just uses the wife Tahoo.

[90503]

I don't see the price of gas as being much of a factor in determining a new car, truck or suv sale...

A dollar or two price fluctuation for a gallon of gas isn't much of a shocker or impact on a budget as it used to be...

Trucks and Suvs are perceived as gas-guzzlers, but that trade off is justified based on what you "could" do with it...haul heavy loads, towing, etc....

Cars like Camaros still have a guzzler image from the wasteful hot-rod, racing image that isn't really justified....Even though mpg is actually not that bad in either car or truck, a trucks bad mileage is considered less wasteful than a less politically correct American muscle car image....

Regardless, either truck or sedan are expensive and if a choice "has" to be made of which one to buy, an Suv or truck will win out...No real secret Camaro or Corvette are non-essential, weekend fun cars....Just sayin'...

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by RenegadeXR

America is headed the way of the Kei car, which Japan has had for decades. Pretty much all "full size" cars have been relegated to only big-time auto enthusiasts at this point in that country. For us, our "Kei cars" still have enough interior space to accommodate our fat America bodies. It's amazing what modern engineering can achieve to create a car that's small on the outside, big on the inside, and yet somehow still meets crash test requirements.

The Kei car success depended heavily on regulations by the government (and the tiny roads/overcrowded cities), which doesn't exist here...yet at least. I'm more willing to bet we skip them completely to jump to autonomous cars (which would be just like the Kei car). But still, subcompact cars do not sell that well in the US. Of the top 20 cars that sold last month, none are subcompact, the top 3 are full size pickups, 8 are SUVs and 8 are small to midsize sedans. If anything can make a "Kei-sized" car sell in the US, autonomous tech will be it.

[NCSD]

Build a great car and people will buy it? Not these days....

Chevy built a great car, but I think things have changed with the younger generation. Cars are not what makes them happy, cars are basic transportation and not status symbols. Most of the people who should be buying camaros, ( the 20 and 30 year olds) don't care how much performance a camaro has. They look at cars differently than the older generations, to them cars are for getting from point a to point b. They'd rather spend their money elsewhere. My brothers are younger than I am and they drive very basic cars that don't take up much of their income, they go out to eat alot, they travel, they go on trips and buy a lot of things that I wouldn't buy because they have different priorities. Thats just my theory and I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, performance cars like the camaro will fade away....

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by reeper

I don't disagree with what you've stated but your talking about Trucks and SUV's where as I was discussing Camaros and Corvettes. When fuel prices rise do you see many jumping into a Camaro or Corvette? I sure don't. I see the cross-over market being big again though. I don't believe gas prices have a big impact on Camaro or Corvette sales especially in a somewhat stable economy.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

There is an effect, but it's indirect.

Many people still (thankfully), a car/truck is an identity item...a way to express themselves through a purchase w/ color, style, modifications, status, etc...

Both trucks and sports cars share that role...and there are enough "swing buyers" who don't necessarily identify with either Mario Andretti, or Country Bill Highroller...that can choose between the two.

When gas prices are high, they are more inclined to opt for an expressive car as opposed to a truck...and the Camaro/Mustang offer that expression with a 28-31mpg sticker on *most* models.

Reeper,

Mr. Wyndham is spot on to my point.

Also just to clear up something, I'm really talking about the Camaro V6 as a high point of sell during higher gas prices. I've already seen this a few years ago when gas hit $4.00 a gallon. I stopped in at the dealer and watched the Camaro V6s leave off the lot while Tahoes covered the used area.

[COmaro]

Originally Posted by 90503

As much as there is a lot of griping over Camaro's sticker price, an SUV or a truck is stupid expensive, yet they sell like hot-cakes....Profit margins have always been the highest for trucks and suvs.... I don't think GM is losing any sleep over Camaro sales as long as trucks and suvs are selling....

The mob is fickle....Get mom that Suv, then the 2nd family car will be dad's Vette or Camaro...

You can still get a truck that is reasonable, if you don't want it outfitted like a Cadillac, and you are willing to shop around. I almost bought a 2016 2500HD 4x4 Crew in January for $36K. It was a "WT", but hell a "WT" has chrome bumpers, power doors and locks, locking rear diff, 6.0 Gas engine, etc.etc.etc. For options it had tow, bedliner and stereo. I waited one day too long and someone else bought it. You can get a pretty nice F150 for mid-30's, too.

I still think the issue with Camaro sales is the retro styling combined with the lack of usable space and the visibility. The entire vehicle is confusing. Is Chevy trying to attract 20-35 drivers? Then the retro styling is a turn off. Are they trying to attract 35-50 drivers? Then the lack of utility and room is a turn off. Are they trying to attract people over 50? Then the visibility and tight seating are a huge turn off.

They managed to include a deal-killer feature for every age group.

[COmaro]

Originally Posted by NCSD

Build a great car and people will buy it? Not these days....

Chevy built a great car, but I think things have changed with the younger generation. Cars are not what makes them happy, cars are basic transportation and not status symbols. Most of the people who should be buying camaros, ( the 20 and 30 year olds) don't care how much performance a camaro has. They look at cars differently than the older generations, to them cars are for getting from point a to point b. They'd rather spend their money elsewhere. My brothers are younger than I am and they drive very basic cars that don't take up much of their income, they go out to eat alot, they travel, they go on trips and buy a lot of things that I wouldn't buy because they have different priorities. Thats just my theory and I hope I'm wrong, because if I'm right, performance cars like the camaro will fade away....

You are correct, great post, and I'll add that the 20-30 somethings who *are* into cars *also* want a car that is practical, and they really don't care that the 6th Gen Camaro pays homage to their grandfather's hot rod with a chopped roof and gunslit windows. Sorry, they simply don't care. Give them a way to carry a bicycle or some Ikea boxes in the back of the car. Chevy finally figured this out, so they came out with the Cruze hatch. Unfortunately, there are already 20 competitors, including some with great performance like the Golf R/GTI, the Focus RS, the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ, and for the vast majority who don't care about performance you have the Kia Soul, the Hyundai Veloster, the Mini, and about ten small SUVs.

The older contingent here, and apparently at GM, don't seem to realize that unlike when we were in our 20's-30's, people in that age group today don't want *more* cars, they want *less* cars. When I was 30 I had a 4x4 pickup, a performance car, and an AWD commuter car. Today, they want *one* car if they can get away with it, and two at the most if they are married. There is no room for the extra fun car in these lives.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by reeper

This really doesn't have anything to do with gas prices or economy or lending. Way to much 'overthinking' going on here.

Corvettes and Camaros are incredibly impracticable. Can you daily drive them - sure but maintenance compared to say a Toyota Camary you'll get killed. On the other hand when compared to a truck or SUV these are really just loud 2-seater cars. So these cars don't compete well with either other cars or truck/SUV's in terms of practicality. I always chuckle at the threads where people ask if SS's can be a daily driver :-) sure but can a lambo.....

Buick - really? Who wants one? Maybe my grandma and grandpa...

Wrong. It is partly due to lending practices. I tend to believe my biz partners who just up and walked out of Chrysler after 30 yrs. I read the memo myself. They are tightening lending on sub prime, which is the biggest chunk of buyers out there. No denying that. Now, they didn't say for how long, but it's happening. And I'm sure other brands are about to fall in line. It's the lending institutions. They are putting crazy high fee's on sub prime now. Which is pushing that buyer out. If you aren't on the inside, then it's easy to say that others are just.........over thinking it.

I own a consulting firm that deals directly with Dealerships. I know. I know their numbers. I know their decline rates. I know their buy rates. I know national data on the credit side. Anyhow, it is what it is. People like me with spot on credit and higher income it won't affect. This affects middle America and sub prime.

Quiz: One of my dealer partners. It's a Hyundai Dealership. Smaller Volume. They move about 130 cars a month.

Question for ya'll. How many apps do you think they are taking and out of those apps, how many are declined. We are talking 520 credit score and under.

We are talking auto's too. Not Real Estate, where the decline rate is even higher.

[COmaro]

Originally Posted by Indydriver

A factor that hasn't been mentioned-and isn't cyclical, it's systemic-is the financial crippling of the Millenial Generation by their crushing student debt. I see this in my own family. My eldest is 32, makes good money as an attorney and yet, had to borrow $16k from me to buy a 5 yo SUV because he couldn't get a car loan due to his $100k in student debt. I won't argue his lack of responsibility in addressing this but, guess what, he's got a lot of company in his peer group. This issue is dramatically impacting the housing market. I don't know about your town but, around here, they can't build rental properties fast enough because young college grads can't get mortgages to buy anything.

Couple this with Baby Boomers, our largest demographic (and most likely auto enthusiasts) now retiring at the rate of 10,000/day-or too poor to retire and you've got long term decline of "peak auto". I am a good example. I retired two years ago and my 2014 Camaro convertible will be the last new car I ever buy. My DD is a superb Tahoe I bought for $21.5 with 55,000 miles on it, in great condition. Why spend $70K on a new one?

Bottom line, you're going to see many industries contracting because of a demographics driven long term decline in demand. Unfortunately, the overall impact on the economy will be somewhere between bad and disastrous.

Great post. I have two nieces, 28 and 30, and three nephews, 21, 23 and 25. Neither of the nieces owns a car, and both have over $100K in student loan debt. The 24yo nephew never went to college, he make $12 an hour and has never owned a car. The 21 yo is in college and has never owned a car. The 25 year old has his degree but also has about $50K in student loans and drives a beater he got from grandma.

As for co-workers in my demographic (l50s into their mid-60s), no one is going to buy a car until the health care thing is figured out. People in my age group are deathly afraid that if they are laid off, they will be paying $800-$1600 a month for health insurance. Think about that - every single person over age 55 or so who is paying for their own health insurance is going to be looking at the equivalent of a car payment on a $100,000 car just to have health insurance under the health care plan currently under consideration! Sales of cars, vacations, appliances, furniture, and other non-essential big ticket items are going to be in the dump when 1st quarter numbers are tallied. Everyone over 50 is simply not spending money. Since a lot of Camaro sales go to the over 50 demographic, don't expect anything but bad news going forward. Buick might as well fold except for China sales.

[sprtplt]

Originally Posted by COmaro

They managed to include a deal-killer feature for every age group.

Best quote ever on this forum, period.