[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Roger that, and I appreciate the video and research you did.

I used Supercar for the first two changes and ESP X3 for the last two. This is my daily driver and it sees a lot of highway miles. AFM is still active. The difference between Supercar and ESP X3 is not so much an issue of cost as availability and my schedule. I do the oil change myself and while I should just order the next fluid set now so it's ready, I'll likely wait until a day or two before and then find it. ESP X3 is readily available most places, Supercar is not. I will stick with 0W-40 and do not see myself ever using 5W-30 given the updated recommendation by engineering.

I think the real question is the difference between DEXOS R and DEXOS 2 - and if both are acceptable, then either oil is acceptable. This is where I would love to see some long-term testing results, including engine torture results and intake build-up results when using either spec.

The old 0W-40 ESP is the exact same as the Supercar 0W-40, as it was simply rebranded. The Supercar 5W-50 is a bit different though. I will be doing an oil analysis soon with the 5W-50, as I have been running it since May, and previously have several of the 0W-40 oil analysis already done and saved. The first one was with the ESP and the second with Supercar 0W-40.

[CalgaryZL1]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Roger that, and I appreciate the video and research you did.

I used Supercar for the first two changes and ESP X3 for the last two. This is my daily driver and it sees a lot of highway miles. AFM is still active. The difference between Supercar and ESP X3 is not so much an issue of cost as availability and my schedule. I do the oil change myself and while I should just order the next fluid set now so it's ready, I'll likely wait until a day or two before and then find it. ESP X3 is readily available most places, Supercar is not. I will stick with 0W-40 and do not see myself ever using 5W-30 given the updated recommendation by engineering.

I think the real question is the difference between DEXOS R and DEXOS 2 - and if both are acceptable, then either oil is acceptable. This is where I would love to see some long-term testing results, including engine torture results and intake build-up results when using either spec.

Basically the R is re-branding

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Will they continually update based on real-world data? Sure. But my point still remains that they all they are doing is making these small shifts and creating a ton more confusion than is necessary. And without drawing a hard line and notifying owners of prior years that "the rules have changed" due to something they learned along the way, they will have a very difficult time winning any cases in court due to their claims of needing to use oils that don't exist...

In other words - they previously claimed that 5W-30 dexos1 was fine for use on the street. If someone runs that in their 2023 and there's a failure, the onus will be on GM to prove that the oil was the root cause of the issue.

I understand your point. I'm sure GM is doing all they can to avoid someone being able to point the finger at them, causing a lawsuit or recall. I assume that being vague is intentional. By saying 5W-30 is "fine" for "street use" is a legal CYA, in my opinion. When they say what they actually recommend, it's a soft nod to what they actually recommend moving forward. They have access to a ton of information that we will never see, so they are the only informed opinion that matters.

In engineering, of which my career is based, we frequently realize that old recommendations are either flawed or no longer considered ideal, and we change our recommendations. We avoid saying that we were actually incorrect or that our previous information was "bad", and we will blame changing environmental standards or "others" as the reason why we now have a more expensive solution. We are always concerned with optics and we want our client to remain confident with our recommendations and analysis. And we truly want what is best for the client, so we will recommend what is best based on our current knowledge. Sometimes, we blame an ex-employee who either rightly (or wrongly) was let go or left us. So, when I read information from engineering, I read it as an engineer and assume there is some legal reason why things are worded the way they are. Simultaneously, I read it with the understanding that engineers are usually bad with grammar and writing, and proof-reading is a dying art. I rarely assume malice, but instead assume cautiousness or apathy (or both).

**The discussion about EPA certification is not so much a discussion on emissions as it is the huge hassle it is to get certifications. Asking GM to spend the time and money necessary to get new oils approved just isn't worth it. I read the entire discussion as engineers saying that what they recommend now is what they wished they had recommended from the beginning.

[ZPirate]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Roger that, and I appreciate the video and research you did.

I used Supercar for the first two changes and ESP X3 for the last two. This is my daily driver and it sees a lot of highway miles. AFM is still active. The difference between Supercar and ESP X3 is not so much an issue of cost as availability and my schedule. I do the oil change myself and while I should just order the next fluid set now so it's ready, I'll likely wait until a day or two before and then find it. ESP X3 is readily available most places, Supercar is not. I will stick with 0W-40 and do not see myself ever using 5W-30 given the updated recommendation by engineering.

I think the real question is the difference between DEXOS R and DEXOS 2 - and if both are acceptable, then either oil is acceptable. This is where I would love to see some long-term testing results, including engine torture results and intake build-up results when using either spec.

I agree with what others have said, there have been some great discussions on this thread. And like others I wish GM hadn't muddied the water so much about the proper oil for the LT1/LT4.

I used M1 ESP 0W-40 for my first oil change at 500 miles. My second oil change was the free one done at my local dealership at 1,500 miles. I know that they used M1 0W-40. I assume it was ESP or Supercar since they also service Corvettes. For my third oil change at 4,000 I used M1 ESPx3 0w-40. As others have said you can get a deal for it at approximately $6 a quart.

I haven't seen anything, other than OP's video, that suggests M1 ESPx3 0w-40 is not an oil that should be used in an LT1/LT4. The only other information that I saw that gave me any concern about ESPx3 0w-40 is from M1's website that states that ESPx3 0w-40 is recommended for vehicles requiring gasoline particulate filters. Otherwise M1 ESPx3 0w-40 is Dexos2 and ESP.

I agree with you. The real question is what is the difference between Dexos2 and Dexos R? And if both are acceptable then it shouldn't matter which you use. Especially if you change your oil regularly. I think most of us who are concerned enough about the oil they use to follow this thread probably change their oil more often than the average person anyway.

I've read on several forums that the real reason GM wanted M1 to rebrand ESP to Supercar is so that Corvette owners would have a specific oil for the Corvette
worthy of their Corvettes. GM didn't want to be associated in any way with the ESP oil used in Porsche's, ESPx3 0w-40. Who knows if that is true or not, but it seems plausible.

[CTRifecta]

Any thoughts on running m1 0w40 FS European car formula? Asking as it's substantially cheaper and easier to find in 5qt jugs from Walmart...



Understand that it's not Dexos approved and probably not a low SAPS oil, however I wonder if that really matters? Seems like it has some pretty stout certifications such as Porsche A40.


Link to the oil I'm referring to:


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-F...2?athbdg=L1200

[CalgaryZL1]

Originally Posted by CTRifecta

Any thoughts on running m1 0w40 FS European car formula? Asking as it's substantially cheaper and easier to find in 5qt jugs from Walmart...



Understand that it's not Dexos approved and probably not a low SAPS oil, however I wonder if that really matters? Seems like it has some pretty stout certifications such as Porsche A40.


Link to the oil I'm referring to:


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-F...2?athbdg=L1200

Or switch to Amsoil they only sell one 0-40 signature series ergo, no confusion

[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by ember1205

In other words - they previously claimed that 5W-30 dexos1 was fine for use on the street. If someone runs that in their 2023 and there's a failure, the onus will be on GM to prove that the oil was the root cause of the issue.

Actually GM still claims 5w-30 is fine, GM has confused people with what looks like a misprint in the 2023 Manual. On page 238 in that manual it says for normal driving DexosR 5w-30 is fine (as we know there is no such thing). On the prior page, same manual it says Dexos1 5w-30 may be used for street use.

Here is page 237, 2023 manual, the misprint appears suggesting DexosR 5w-30 occurs on page 238 same manual. I believe they meant to use Dexos1 again. Regardless pg 237 of the most up to date manual clearly states Dexo1 5w-30 is fine for street use.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Actually GM still claims 5w-30 is fine, GM has confused people with what looks like a misprint in the 2023 Manual. On page 238 in that manual it says for normal driving DexosR 5w-30 is fine (as we know there is no such thing). On the prior page, same manual it says Dexos1 5w-30 may be used for street use.

Here is page 237, 2023 manual, the misprint appears suggesting DexosR 5w-30 occurs on page 238 same manual. I believe they meant to use Dexos1 again. Regardless pg 237 of the most up to date manual clearly states Dexo1 5w-30 is fine for street use.

Yeah, I've seen the dexosR recommendations from that manual which is what I was referring to when I said they are recommending an oil that doesn't exist. The dexos1 reference continues to be the common thread from day 1 which is the other point I was making - the engine hasn't changed, only the marketing name of the oil spec.

[haggler]

Originally Posted by CTRifecta

Any thoughts on running m1 0w40 FS European car formula? Asking as it's substantially cheaper and easier to find in 5qt jugs from Walmart...



Understand that it's not Dexos approved and probably not a low SAPS oil, however I wonder if that really matters? Seems like it has some pretty stout certifications such as Porsche A40.


Link to the oil I'm referring to:


https://www.walmart.com/ip/Mobil-1-F...2?athbdg=L1200

Technically, it will protect the motor just fine. If you're worried about warranty claims and push back in some strange event, I would not use that.
Edit: I'll agree the SAPS issue is debatable. This european car formula had the formula changed as well, and is now API SP certified, so they are meeting tough new requirements.

As far as phos and zinc, its not that much higher either...

Mobil 1™ FS 0W-40 P 930 Zn 1000
Mobil™ 1 Supercar 0W-40 900 990

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Actually GM still claims 5w-30 is fine, GM has confused people with what looks like a misprint in the 2023 Manual. On page 238 in that manual it says for normal driving DexosR 5w-30 is fine (as we know there is no such thing). On the prior page, same manual it says Dexos1 5w-30 may be used for street use.

Here is page 237, 2023 manual, the misprint appears suggesting DexosR 5w-30 occurs on page 238 same manual. I believe they meant to use Dexos1 again. Regardless pg 237 of the most up to date manual clearly states Dexo1 5w-30 is fine for street use.

The snip you shared is for the 4cyl and V6, this thread is specifically for the V8 LT1 and LT4.

The video explains the reason for the dual specification as well as why there are new recommendations. The cliff notes is that it costs a lot of money to get oils certified by the EPA and 5W-30 was the first oil certified. 0W-40 was the next oil certified and the recommendation by the engineers. This timeline means it was likely their recommendation several years prior to being added to the manual, but that's how the business and certifications work. I also feel the new recommendations are in response to some known issues - such as AFM lifters and oil sludge buildup on the intake valves.

[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

The snip you shared is for the 4cyl and V6, this thread is specifically for the V8 LT1 and LT4.

The video explains the reason for the dual specification as well as why there are new recommendations. The cliff notes is that it costs a lot of money to get oils certified by the EPA and 5W-30 was the first oil certified. 0W-40 was the next oil certified and the recommendation by the engineers. This timeline means it was likely their recommendation several years prior to being added to the manual, but that's how the business and certifications work. I also feel the new recommendations are in response to some known issues - such as AFM lifters and oil sludge buildup on the intake valves.

[Chevelle vs Camaro]

So I’ve been using Royal Purple 5w-30 Dexos 2 for last couple changes

I just but Mobil 1 supercar 0w-40.

I have a 2018 SS (LT1). Would you all recommend something different?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by Chevelle vs Camaro

So I’ve been using Royal Purple 5w-30 Dexos 2 for last couple changes

I just but Mobil 1 supercar 0w-40.

I have a 2018 SS (LT1). Would you all recommend something different?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Need to know more about your driving habits, but the 0W-40 should cover you in all scenarios providing you’re not tracking the car on a competition-type tire.

[FollowMyLine]

I decided to add this for context. I’ll add it to the first post as well:

Oil Info for LT1/LT4:

Long read coming your way regarding oil types and usage on the LT1 and LT4.

I was recently involved in a conversation with the Assistant Chief Engineer of the small block program at GM, around engine oil for track use.

The conversation revolved around Mobil 1 Supercar 0W-40, 15W-50 oil for track use, and the 5W-50 Supercar oil recently developed by Mobil 1 for the C8 Z06 LT6.

Regarding the Dexos R certified oils, the Mobil 1 0W-40 Supercar oil is still the recommended oil, and the factory fill on the current Gen V LT1 and LT4 engines. This oil has been certified for both street and track use by GM. My personal recommendation is to continue to follow your manufacturers recommended guidelines and use this oil.

Now that I have that out of the way, here is what was discovered during that conversation. The 15W-50 oil that is recommended for track use on the ZL1 1LE is recommended because the thicker/heavier weight oil provides better protection for the engine during high-G loads when the car is being pushed to the limit during track use. Because the LT1 and LT4 in the Camaro is a wet-sump system, the thinner weight 0W-40 provides less long term protection on the internals, such as bearings, rings, etc. when used on track, especially with a sticky tire like the 3R or Slicks.

GM recommends changing back to 0W-40 after track use because they LEGALLY MUST DO THIS. The car is certified by GM and the EPA with the fuel mileage that is done using the 0W-40, and not the 15W-50. Because of this, they have to classify that the 15W-50 is for off-road use ONLY.

So, what if you have an SS 1LE with an LT1 and you run the SC3R, Trofeo R, or a slick tire? Great question, I’m glad you asked.

The recommendation here is the same as the ZL1 1LE. Switch to a 15W-50 oil for track use, especially if you push your car hard on track. The added protection is cheap insurance to ensure your LT1 doesn’t sound like an action scene out of a Michael Bay movie.

So, what happens if I leave the 15W-50 in the car and do not switch back to 0W-40? Another excellent question. I’m so glad you brought your thinking cap.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with leaving 15W-50 in your car, depending on where you live. The downside to this is that you get less cold-weather protection, and your fuel mileage will suffer minimally and in theory, you’ll lose a tiny bit of horsepower. Think less than 1 mile per gallon or a hand full of horsies. However, depending on environment, your mileage may vary.

This leads me to the next topic. Mobil 1 Supercar 5W-50. After a lengthy discussion around the oils development for the Z06, the ACE and I determined that for my situation (a 3-season vehicle or a vehicle in warm climates year-round, who tend to push their cars harder than most, but remain on street tires), the 5W-50 seems to be the magic elixir. It’s heavy enough to add the additional protection needed in higher-G loads (but not quite SC3R or other high-grip tires) and as long as the car isn’t being driven in cold climates, it will work just fine. In the rare instance you may be running a cold track day (think less than 40°F) you just need to let the oil warm up for 5-10 minutes first.

As far as oil filter is concerned, the GM / ACDelco PF64 is still the filter to use. It has the correct bypass valve pressure rating (22 psi) for the LT1 and LT4. The other aftermarket option for a filter with the correct bypass valve psi rating is the WIX WL10290XP. The Mobil 1 M1-113A is NOT recommended because it's bypass rating is ~12-15 psi. The ACDelco UPF64R is also NOT recommended because it's bypass rating is 35 psi.

After further discussion with the Small Block ACE, the safe range for oil filter bypass valves is 22-30 psi.

The part number for the 5W-50 oil cap is 12697069, for those interested.

So, in conclusion, the Mobil 1 Supercar 5W-50 is what I will be running from here on out. If you live in cold climates and daily your car, or if you never track it, or if you don’t really push it hard on street tires, 0W-40 is perfectly fine and you should stick to that. Got a ZL1 1LE, or track your SS 1LE with SC3R or slicks? Go 15W-50.

Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.