[ember1205]

Originally Posted by gblaue

Put the hub behind the dash, and run USB A extensions to your console and glove box.

What's behind the glove box to plug into? Is there a USB port/plug of any sort to leverage directly? If so, then a USB-A to mini-USB cable would get the console module back up and running after disconnecting from the HMI.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by ember1205

USB spec (up to and including USB 2.0) specifically calls for regulating power output to 500mA. When you move to things like Power Delivery or other fast-charge standards, things change. The ports in this car do not support that, so they fall back to 500mA which will actually work just fine as long as your phone isn't doing multiple things at once (location services/GPS, streaming music, etc.).

USB 3.0 allows up to 900mA. When you're talking about 2A of output for 5 volts, I suspect you are referring to chargers only and are discussing the TOTAL output of the device spread across four ports.

The spec regulates it to 500ma, but most ports will offer more, with many doing 1.2amp and some offering 2 without having to hit USB3 ports.

Go ahead and try charging your phone in AA mode on a port limited to 500ma (the car's stock ports are not limited to 500ma) ... see how far that gets you.

You can run a battery charge monitoring application that gives you the milliamp draw while not charging and then the overall current use while charging and with AA active doing things like navigating and playing music (the normal behavior of it). Your phone will draw up to 1000ma doing this. The port has to supply more than that to charge the phone while in-use ...and it does charge the phone ..fast in the car.

OR I can throw in my USB current / power measurement device i got for another electronics project and take a picture after work today. Forgot I had that. Has a nifty oled screen in it that gives you all the pertinent numbers.

edit:
(when it comes to computers, you will often see these ports differentiated from normal usb ports as "super charger ports" ...this isn't to be confused with fast charging where > 5v is supplied to the device when a handshake is made letting the charger know the device can handle > 5v. These are normal 5v ports that offer much higher currents for the purpose of charging devices like ipads that dont like being charged while off (not that they're ever off when plugged in)... They're not charge-only ports.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

The spec regulates it to 500ma, but most ports will offer more, with many doing 1.2amp and some offering 2 without having to hit USB3 ports.

Go ahead and try charging your phone in AA mode on a port limited to 500ma (the car's stock ports are not limited to 500ma) ... see how far that gets you.

You can run a battery charge monitoring application that gives you the milliamp draw while not charging and then the overall current use while charging and with AA active doing things like navigating and playing music (the normal behavior of it). Your phone will draw up to 1000ma doing this. The port has to supply more than that to charge the phone while in-use ...and it does charge the phone ..fast in the car.

OR I can throw in my USB current / power measurement device i got for another electronics project and take a picture after work today. Forgot I had that. Has a nifty oled screen in it that gives you all the pertinent numbers.

I'd be curious to see what your measuring device would show so long as it shows the voltage as well. Some phones will tinker with current and voltage because they need a specific wattage (VA) for charging. For example, android devices that support PD charging will switch between 2A @ 9V (18W) and 3A @ 5V (15W) in order to charge. So, while it might look like there's more than 500mA of current, it may be at the expense of a drop in voltage. It all depends on the device.

It's also entirely possible that the devices in the cars are actually built to the USB 3.0 spec for power which allows up to .9A @ 5.25V (about double what 2.0 provides).

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I'd be curious to see what your measuring device would show so long as it shows the voltage as well. Some phones will tinker with current and voltage because they need a specific wattage (VA) for charging. For example, android devices that support PD charging will switch between 2A @ 9V (18W) and 3A @ 5V (15W) in order to charge. So, while it might look like there's more than 500mA of current, it may be at the expense of a drop in voltage. It all depends on the device.

It's also entirely possible that the devices in the cars are actually built to the USB 3.0 spec for power which allows up to .9A @ 5.25V (about double what 2.0 provides).

I think more likely, the other connector you see on the back of the USB module in the center console, supplies the source power for a regulator that is inside that module that actually powers the ports. So the HMI port supplies only 500ma, but that power isn't used. Instead power is supplied by the "powered hub" of the 2 port usb module and that power is much greater than 500ma.

[cellsafemode]

Some evidence. Second photo is with nothing plugged in, 1st is with my phone just with Android auto running...I checked current with the phone idle as it would be and compared to me taking a picture and it made no significant difference to current draw since so much goes to battery charging.

Screenshots are with the amps app. This showed power fluctuations between 300ma and over 1000. Keep in mind, this is total power seen by the battery, not how much is being drawn ( so it is the sum of power use which is negative and power supply from the charger, which is positive) Lower positive numbers it reports == higher draw and thus slower charging. Negative values would indicate discharging, even if plugged in.


The little flash drive you see there is a 32GB flash drive to hold music. So that 1.46amps is not the total power the port is providing, I fully suspect this is a 2amp total power powered usb hub.

[cellsafemode]

If you subtract the numbers from the amps app at any given time with the number coming from the usb port as reported by the measurement device, you'll see device "use" ranges between 1000mA and around 450ish mA. This means if you had a port that was actually limited to 500mA, your device would almost certainly be discharging the entire time you were using AA. Potentially, depending on the device, the entire time it was plugged in (like the case with an ipad)

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If you subtract the numbers from the amps app at any given time with the number coming from the usb port as reported by the measurement device, you'll see device "use" ranges between 1000mA and around 450ish mA. This means if you had a port that was actually limited to 500mA, your device would almost certainly be discharging the entire time you were using AA. Potentially, depending on the device, the entire time it was plugged in (like the case with an ipad)

Since there are multiple connections into the unit as a whole, it is possible that the module is acting as a powered hub and providing higher than expected power outputs.

One thing about your screenshot...

It shows 974mA @ 4.268VDC. That's 4.157W. If that same output were being produced at the max 5.25VDC, it would only be at 792mA. Still not down to the 500mA level, but this is the sort of thing I was talking about where you'll see higher levels of current with dropped voltage.

No matter... I'm going to see what might be available at the HMI for a straight USB port of some kind. If there's nothing there, then I'll have to decide if I want to grab the mini-USB at the console, convert to USB-A, extend to the glove box, insert a hub, and then use a USB-A to mini-USB to go back to the console...

Or...

Drop a small hub in the console, use USB-A to device cables, and run the wires under the console either to the glovebox or to the area under the kneepad like @MANNAXMAN did. I do like the idea of being able to easily reach the phone when exiting the car.......

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by ember1205

Since there are multiple connections into the unit as a whole, it is possible that the module is acting as a powered hub and providing higher than expected power outputs.

It almost 100% is, i just haven't bothered taking the module out to put a multimeter to the second wiring harness going to the usb module.

The HMI is almost certainly not pushing out 2 amps over the tiny usb wires over the distance that wire is. The power is coming from the second harness. And i'm pretty confidence the stepdown converter is inside the usb module, and this is what causes usb module overheating and failures in some cars. Simple 5v stepdown transistors are limited to around 2amps without needing significant active cooling and more expensive parts.

One thing about your screenshot...

It shows 974mA @ 4.268VDC. That's 4.157W. If that same output were being produced at the max 5.25VDC, it would only be at 792mA. Still not down to the 500mA level, but this is the sort of thing I was talking about where you'll see higher levels of current with dropped voltage.

The voltage the port is supplying is over 5v. The supply (measurement device) reading is what matters in relation to the request here. What the device internally sees hitting the battery is the result of the Lipo charger. The app is reading what the lipo charging circuit is seeing actually going to and from the battery. Lipo cells are limited to 4.2v ...with slightly higher voltages applied during charging.

The usb ports are supplying about 10 watts max total. Though in practice it's probably not much higher than what I was showing at around 8 watts (if we include the flash drive too).
(edit) the port was supplying 5.07v @ 1.46amps or 7.4watts. add a few mw for the flash drive and you're approaching 8 watts. You could probably survive off 5 watts but it would barely sustain the charge the device had if you were having it use AA and that would still require a port that can put out 1amp. That would effectively drop what the amp app was reporting by 500ma, which gets you hovering around 0 or negative more than positive. (/edit)

No matter... I'm going to see what might be available at the HMI for a straight USB port of some kind. If there's nothing there, then I'll have to decide if I want to grab the mini-USB at the console, convert to USB-A, extend to the glove box, insert a hub, and then use a USB-A to mini-USB to go back to the console...

Or...

Drop a small hub in the console, use USB-A to device cables, and run the wires under the console either to the glovebox or to the area under the kneepad like @MANNAXMAN did. I do like the idea of being able to easily reach the phone when exiting the car.......

I think you'll end up going the kneepad pocket route. It's the most practical solution unless you need more than 2 devices connected at any given time or really hate the visibility of any wires at all.

I really think you'll have a problem finding any USB cable that can connect to the hmi ports directly. They are not centered in the socket and dont leave much clearance for the cable connectors and they are longer in the metal male end than normal cables ...making me think that a standard cable wont even contact the internal female pads in the port even if you managed to find a cable that fits. I think if you go the option of relocating the ports, you'll be cutting the existing wire or trying to extend the existing ports.

I can do a side by side of the hmi cable vs a standard mini usb to show the difference in lengths after work

[cellsafemode]

I checked, the cable ends are standard length. So only obstacle there is clearance around the port.

[ember1205]

Cool. Thanks for checking it all out and following up.

Making a pouch that attaches to the carpeting on the tunnel seems like it should be a fairly reasonable way to approach this. Currently, I'm setting my phone in the little "pocket" behind the console and keep forgetting to grab it when I get out of the car - I can't imagine that would get better or easier if I have to reach across to the glove box! lol

I will only need one phone connected for power/data and my USB drive for power/data. I do want another phone charging port, but I will be looking at ways to use the 12V plug for that in a cleaner way than how it works now with the high-output charger that I am using (with a cable that's longer than it needs to be). One thing I'm going to look for is a high-output charger where the USB connections are on the side of the protruding barrel instead of the top - being on the top makes them susceptible to getting bent/damaged.

[ember1205]

Got a chance to test a few things out over the weekend, and thought I would update this a bit...

If the two USB ports in the console are part of a "powered hub", power output on those ports seems to be tightly capped. I plugged a USB 'hub' of sorts in that contains an SD Card / MicroSD (TF) Card reader along with three standard USB-A ports. I inserted a MicroSD Card and plugged in my phone. My phone kept disconnecting from Android Auto no matter what I did, and the charging indicator dropped off at one point as well. I had this same device plugged into both a USB charging device and my computer and had no issue operating both items at the same time. So, the limitation has to be a lack of sufficient power from the port in the car.

Not sure where I might go from here as the hope was to be able to eliminate the plug-in charger from the console and moving to a powered hub would almost certainly require that I run a cable there anyhow (short of taping power under the console and rigging up something on my own that might be able to remain hidden.

[turbo2ltr]

I forgot to post, but I took apart the USB module in the console..

it contains:
An Analog to Digital audio converter.
This makes me assume the Aux in is converted to USB before it goes over to the main unit. Makes me want to try a USB audio dongle, just to see what happens (probably nothing)

Current limiting chip
This is used to provide power to the 2 USB ports. Specs state it's limited to 2.8A per channel. It is safe to assume the USB ports are probably limited to much less than this. I'd have to inspect the module again to determine actual current limit (controlled by the value of a resistor)

Main Controller chip
Unfortunately I cannot locate any information on this chip.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by turbo2ltr

Current limiting chip
This is used to provide power to the 2 USB ports. Specs state it's limited to 2.8A per channel. It is safe to assume the USB ports are probably limited to much less than this. I'd have to inspect the module again to determine actual current limit (controlled by the value of a resistor)

2.8A would seem like it might be a -total- amount across both/all ports as I could not get a SD Card and Android Phone to both power correctly off of what would have been a single port (via the hub device I was using). Plugging a USB drive into one of the car's ports and my phone into the other has always yielded correct operation of both (I listen to music off of the USB drive while my phone is connected to charge and operate Android Auto). Charging of the phone is slow, at least while running Waze, but that's sort of to be expected since Location Services draws a fair amount of power and operating the Waze app also requires some power. "Whatever is left" is what is available for charging the phone, and that isn't a whole lot.

[turbo2ltr]

Very possible. The chip itself is rated for a total of 2.8A per channel, but the actual limit is driven by the circuit design and could be as low as 250mA per side if that's what they decided. I highly doubt it's that low but they also wouldn't run the chip near it's limit. 1.5 to 2A is reasonable. But may be just 1A. From the pictures I took, I can't tell what resistor is connected to pin 7.