[18ss376]

Already made that prediction.

Originally Posted by 18ss376

The more black GM keeps putting on it, I think sales will drop more & more.
Can't wait until the black fad it gone...

[maraging]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Do you guys really think sales figures alone have any impact on whether or not a car is doing well?

What are the other factors besides sales figures that show how a car is doing??

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by maraging

What are the other factors besides sales figures that show how a car is doing??

Margin and margin %?

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Margin and margin %?

Can't hit your margin target unless you hit your sales targets.

And as we've discussed hundreds of times, no one here knows what GM's targets were. I would be shocked if anyone thought or planned on selling fewer cars than they did with the Gen5.

Yes it's possible GM is more profitable with the Gen6 over the Gen5. I have my doubts.

The other thing that can drive profit is selling more of the cars with higher margins or achieving a better mix. And again we don't know if GM is selling more SSs and ZL1s than they planned or fewer. We don't know their plan.

But history suggests that in 2001 GM sold a pretty steady dose of V8 cars. There just weren't enough base cars to carry the financial burden for the program.

[motorhead]

I havent really seen anyone mention reliability as a reason for sales slumping. This car sure seems to have its share of issues and some major ones to boot. When Car and Driver had an LT1 Vette blow a motor and then again another one in their Camaro tester, that had to turn some off from GM in general.
With reports of blown motors, transmission issues, axle seals and axles bolts, windshield fogging, exhuast rattles along with the paint issues on many of the 16's among other issues, that has to hurt. Comsumer Reports had lowered their rating on the car too. Like them or not, people do read them and use their information like its the only truth much of the time. These issues may be out shinning the fact that its the best preformer when it isnt broke. I know my father in law is about tired of his because of issues. I havent had mine long to say either way about reliability. I will say that I like my Hellcat's interior better so far.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by 18ss376

Already made that prediction.

Are you guys talking about black wheels, hood wrap and so on? I kind of like that and it seems that on autotrader at least, there is more silver than black.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by motorhead

I havent really seen anyone mention reliability as a reason for sales slumping. This car sure seems to have its share of issues and some major ones to boot. When Car and Driver had an LT1 Vette blow a motor and then again another one in their Camaro tester, that had to turn some off from GM in general.
With reports of blown motors, transmission issues, axle seals and axles bolts, windshield fogging, exhuast rattles along with the paint issues on many of the 16's among other issues, that has to hurt. Comsumer Reports had lowered their rating on the car too. Like them or not, people do read them and use their information like its the only truth much of the time. These issues may be out shinning the fact that its the best preformer when it isnt broke. I know my father in law is about tired of his because of issues. I havent had mine long to say either way about reliability. I will say that I like my Hellcat's interior better so far.

I brought that up earlier but someone countered that other cars have their fair share of issues also. That may be true, but the A8 shudder seems like a pronounced issue.

[Aragorn]

This was just posted in another section: Purchased my car in Feb of 2016. I had the triple flush at 15000 mi The first TC at 20000 mi and the second TC at 21500 mi. The triple flush helped for about 3000 mi and then the shudder came back and became steadily worse. The First TC lessened the shudder but it did it on the way home from the dealer. Within 1000 mi it was like driving over a wash board on a daily basis. The 2nd TC took 2 days to start shuddering again. New rebuilt transmission installed and car bucks and sputters. I spent $48,000 on this car and have not enjoyed driving a mile in over a year!

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

I brought that up earlier but someone countered that other cars have their fair share of issues also. That may be true, but the A8 shudder seems like a pronounced issue.

That may be ,but this car has had enough problems to get recognized for them which isnt a good thing. People pay attention to reliability.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by maraging

What are the other factors besides sales figures that show how a car is doing??

Sales is like income. So if you saw Chevy making, let's say $5 million dollars off the Camaro and Ford making $10 million dollars off the Mustang, would you automatically assume that Ford was doing better than Chevy off those numbers alone?

That was just an example. What matters is how much in profits the car is bringing in. And we don't know that. If it costs GM $5K to make a Camaro and they sell 20,000 of them at $10K...and it costs Ford $8K to make a Mustang and they sell 30,000 of them at $10K, tell me, which one is doing better?

The problem with all you gloom and doomers is you look at one figure, sales, and freak the hell out and start declaring that the Camaro is doomed and GM is gonna pull the plug and shit. When in all reality, GM could be making a shit load of money hand over fist with the Camaro and Ford could just be scraping by with the Mustang. Look at how many discounts people were getting Mustangs at for the past few years. Thousands and thousands of dollars dropped off MSRP. People on other sites, *cough* M6G *cough*, were bragging for the past few years that they were getting brand new GTs for in the mid $20K range. And a lot of them were complaining that Chevy dealerships were not budging on the price of the Camaro and they couldn't afford MSRP so they went and got thousands of dollars dropped off on a Mustang GT that they scrapped pennies to buy, lol!! So with all those discounts Ford has been giving out, do you really think they're doing much better than a lesser selling Camaro at MSRP? I did math on this years ago and based on my limited unprofessional data, Ford would have had to outsell the Camaro by 2 to 1 consistently and even then they'd still just about break even. And that would be just to make the same amount of money. That still says nothing over whether or not the Camaro is selling well enough to justify it's production.

So all I'm saying is that you can't look at one number and make guesses. A person who makes $150K and has $145K in expenses is more broke than a person who makes $75K a year and has $20K in expenses. Get it?

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sales is like income. So if you saw Chevy making, let's say $5 million dollars off the Camaro and Ford making $10 million dollars off the Mustang, would you automatically assume that Ford was doing better than Chevy off those numbers alone?

That was just an example. What matters is how much in profits the car is bringing in. And we don't know that. If it costs GM $5K to make a Camaro and they sell 20,000 of them at $10K...and it costs Ford $8K to make a Mustang and they sell 30,000 of them at $10K, tell me, which one is doing better?

The problem with all you gloom and doomers is you look at one figure, sales, and freak the hell out and start declaring that the Camaro is doomed and GM is gonna pull the plug and shit. When in all reality, GM could be making a shit load of money hand over fist with the Camaro and Ford could just be scraping by with the Mustang. Look at how many discounts people were getting Mustangs at for the past few years. Thousands and thousands of dollars dropped off MSRP. People on other sites, *cough* M6G *cough*, were bragging for the past few years that they were getting brand new GTs for in the mid $20K range. And a lot of them were complaining that Chevy dealerships were not budging on the price of the Camaro and they couldn't afford MSRP so they went and got thousands of dollars dropped off on a Mustang GT that they scrapped pennies to buy, lol!! So with all those discounts Ford has been giving out, do you really think they're doing much better than a lesser selling Camaro at MSRP? I did math on this years ago and based on my limited unprofessional data, Ford would have had to outsell the Camaro by 2 to 1 consistently and even then they'd still just about break even. And that would be just to make the same amount of money. That still says nothing over whether or not the Camaro is selling well enough to justify it's production.

So all I'm saying is that you can't look at one number and make guesses. A person who makes $150K and has $145K in expenses is more broke than a person who makes $75K a year and has $20K in expenses. Get it?

[Mitt11]

Originally Posted by maraging

What are the other factors besides sales figures that show how a car is doing??

You can't get an accurate picture of how well a car is doing solely from sales figures, but it doesn't mean they are useless. Take the 4th gen Camaro, obviously not apples to apples with the 6th gen, but it is a comparable example. By the time GM pulled the plug on the 4th gen in late 2001, there were a lot of factors working against the car. Unique platform, terrible sales, booming SUV/truck market among other things. The 6th gen is facing a booming SUV/truck market, but it shares the Alpha platform and hasn't had a drastic drop in sales.


2019 will paint a much better picture of the state of the car, but I think GM will keep the car regardless.


My guess is that GM has a plan. If the rumors are true and there is a mid engine Corvette coming soon, that car will no doubt cost more than the current C7. How much more is up to debate, but even an extra $10,000 can price out a lot of people. Where are those people likely to turn when they can't get a new Corvette? My bet is most will settle for a cheaper Camaro.


As controversial as the 6th gen refresh is, people are buying the car and people do like the redesign, and it was probably very cheap to do for GM. If this refresh can slow decreasing sales, or even maintain levels, it accomplished its goal. The Camaro only has to coast until it theoretically picks up low end Corvette sales. I personally see a bright future for the Camaro platform, but there will probably be a lot of change to maintain its profitability.

I wouldn't worry about the Camaro being cancelled until sales numbers drop below 25,000 a year.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Can't hit your margin target unless you hit your sales targets.

And as we've discussed hundreds of times, no one here knows what GM's targets were. I would be shocked if anyone thought or planned on selling fewer cars than they did with the Gen5.

Yes it's possible GM is more profitable with the Gen6 over the Gen5. I have my doubts.

The other thing that can drive profit is selling more of the cars with higher margins or achieving a better mix. And again we don't know if GM is selling more SSs and ZL1s than they planned or fewer. We don't know their plan.

But history suggests that in 2001 GM sold a pretty steady dose of V8 cars. There just weren't enough base cars to carry the financial burden for the program.

This ^ and you can kind of get an idea based on the cars in inventory. I know cars.com isn't the most scientific method out there, but a few months ago, you could see they still had thousands of 17s on the lots, as well as thousands of 18s. That right there tells me, they expected to sell more than they are. Now it doesn't mean doom and gloom but to me, it tells me they aren't selling as many as they would like.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sales is like income. So if you saw Chevy making, let's say $5 million dollars off the Camaro and Ford making $10 million dollars off the Mustang, would you automatically assume that Ford was doing better than Chevy off those numbers alone?

That was just an example. What matters is how much in profits the car is bringing in. And we don't know that. If it costs GM $5K to make a Camaro and they sell 20,000 of them at $10K...and it costs Ford $8K to make a Mustang and they sell 30,000 of them at $10K, tell me, which one is doing better?

The problem with all you gloom and doomers is you look at one figure, sales, and freak the hell out and start declaring that the Camaro is doomed and GM is gonna pull the plug and shit. When in all reality, GM could be making a shit load of money hand over fist with the Camaro and Ford could just be scraping by with the Mustang. Look at how many discounts people were getting Mustangs at for the past few years. Thousands and thousands of dollars dropped off MSRP. People on other sites, *cough* M6G *cough*, were bragging for the past few years that they were getting brand new GTs for in the mid $20K range. And a lot of them were complaining that Chevy dealerships were not budging on the price of the Camaro and they couldn't afford MSRP so they went and got thousands of dollars dropped off on a Mustang GT that they scrapped pennies to buy, lol!! So with all those discounts Ford has been giving out, do you really think they're doing much better than a lesser selling Camaro at MSRP? I did math on this years ago and based on my limited unprofessional data, Ford would have had to outsell the Camaro by 2 to 1 consistently and even then they'd still just about break even. And that would be just to make the same amount of money. That still says nothing over whether or not the Camaro is selling well enough to justify it's production.

So all I'm saying is that you can't look at one number and make guesses. A person who makes $150K and has $145K in expenses is more broke than a person who makes $75K a year and has $20K in expenses. Get it?

Lets no forget the firesales they have on Camaro's as well. Lot of people wait for the 20% off sale that GM throws on just about every model at the end of the model year.

But Blaq has lots of good points. We are missing to many other variables to make a 100% conclusion.

Originally Posted by Mitt11

You can't get an accurate picture of how well a car is doing solely from sales figures, but it doesn't mean they are useless. Take the 4th gen Camaro, obviously not apples to apples with the 6th gen, but it is a comparable example. By the time GM pulled the plug on the 4th gen in late 2001, there were a lot of factors working against the car. Unique platform, terrible sales, booming SUV/truck market among other things. The 6th gen is facing a booming SUV/truck market, but it shares the Alpha platform and hasn't had a drastic drop in sales.


2019 will paint a much better picture of the state of the car, but I think GM will keep the car regardless.


My guess is that GM has a plan. If the rumors are true and there is a mid engine Corvette coming soon, that car will no doubt cost more than the current C7. How much more is up to debate, but even an extra $10,000 can price out a lot of people. Where are those people likely to turn when they can't get a new Corvette? My bet is most will settle for a cheaper Camaro.


As controversial as the 6th gen refresh is, people are buying the car and people do like the redesign, and it was probably very cheap to do for GM. If this refresh can slow decreasing sales, or even maintain levels, it accomplished its goal. The Camaro only has to coast until it theoretically picks up low end Corvette sales. I personally see a bright future for the Camaro platform, but there will probably be a lot of change to maintain its profitability.

I wouldn't worry about the Camaro being cancelled until sales numbers drop below 25,000 a year.

Well the only thing I can add to that is I have had said it numerous times before. I hope to one day own a brand new Corvette. I will NEVER settle for a Camaro if the Corvette is priced out of my range. Sorry not sorry but a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette.


Also I want an answer. I think I know the answer, but why does this thread keep getting buried in the Price/Tracking/Ordering section? Never got moved when Camaro was ahead in the game? All of the sales threads lately, and mostly the ones with negative numbers get buried to a subsection that is not frequented. This discussion has nothing to do with price/ordering/tracking.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ and you can kind of get an idea based on the cars in inventory. I know cars.com isn't the most scientific method out there, but a few months ago, you could see they still had thousands of 17s on the lots, as well as thousands of 18s. That right there tells me, they expected to sell more than they are. Now it doesn't mean doom and gloom but to me, it tells me they aren't selling as many as they would like.



Lets no forget the firesales they have on Camaro's as well. Lot of people wait for the 20% off sale that GM throws on just about every model at the end of the model year.

But Blaq has lots of good points. We are missing to many other variables to make a 100% conclusion.



Well the only thing I can add to that is I have had said it numerous times before. I hope to one day own a brand new Corvette. I will NEVER settle for a Camaro if the Corvette is priced out of my range. Sorry not sorry but a Camaro will NEVER be a Corvette.


Also I want an answer. I think I know the answer, but why does this thread keep getting buried in the Price/Tracking/Ordering section? Never got moved when Camaro was ahead in the game? All of the sales threads lately, and mostly the ones with negative numbers get buried to a subsection that is not frequented. This discussion has nothing to do with price/ordering/tracking.

No reason to be sorry about the Camaro never being a Corvette in fact i believe its a good thing , same as a Corvette will never be a Camaro . When i made my mind up to trade in my 2014 SS 1le i was set on getting a new Corvette /Z51 ,after driving it as much as i wanted a Corvette i just couldn't do it , i felt like i would have just been settling for the Corvette because it was a Corvette , i was not star struck in any way by that car. I guess I'm just not a Corvette person , i may try again when in my 60s . I didnt settle for my 2018 SS 1Le in any way , i actually feel its a better car then the Corvette i drove , but thats just me .