[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

for your statement to be true, ferrari's would have to be selling noticeably worse than other super cars in the price range. I dont think that would be the case.



That's why i said even within the same car segment compared against similar vehicles, the camaro consistently does worse. Even among it's own purchasers, it has seen it's market share fall after it's initial bump from nostalgia that the start of the 5th gen brought.



Nobody goes "Man, the camaro is just so good looking but if only for XYZ.."

They go "Man, that's too loud for my tastes", "That's too aggressive looking", "It's designed by a 9 year old boy" etc.



it takes a special person to really like how the camaro looks to choose to purchase it over a mustang or charger/challenger - which have much broader market appeal despite making nearly all the same compromises you make with a camaro.



I'm not saying i like how tesla's current models look ...but since i like the camaro, i know i'm not a good indicator of what the general public likes. Unlike some things, your opinion on aesthetics are pretty hard to divorce from your own biases.



It's basically like art, you dont ask a guy who likes still-life what the best abstract painting is... The camaro is like jazzy abstract cubism ...and cars that look like the tesla are still-life portraits and that's what everyone wants this era. You gotta ask the plebs what looks best and just go with what they say, no matter how stupid it is.

But your complaints with Camaro being loud, aggressive and childish equally can apply to Mustang and Challenger. Those apply to the entire segment. If that's someone's complaint, they fit in a Lexus, not any pony car or sports car.

As tired as we are hearing the whole visibility and trunk opening complaints, if those are your points, that at least makes sense and can explain the sales difference between the cars.

And again, look at BMW. Yeah they sell well, but they are also not what are used to be because they are too busy trying to please the mainstream, and now Tesla is trying to eat their lunch.

There is also the fact that sports car help establish brand image, which doesn't directly contibute to profit but it can definitely contribute indirectly. VW group loses millions for each Bugatti sold, but they still do it because it helps people associate Bugatti with VW. Camaro's problem is that Corvette's already doing that job. If Corvette isn't there, I don't think Camaro would go away.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

For a daily driver or grandma grocery getter, electrics are fine. That is until you have to try evacuating in one from South Florida 500+ miles up I95 or I75 during a Hurricane. Good luck finding a free charger.

By the time 10000 Teslas are all charged up each 1 hour, the hurricane will have already blown over.

I actually found the opposite situation. Most homeowners actually don't evacuate, that is mainly for the low lying areas and folks directly on the water. When the hurricane threatens everyone freaks and tries to get gas and the lines are super long and the pumps run dry. Just like we saw last week. Meanwhile I just charge up at home with no fuss. 300 miles of range good enough and worst case you can resort to a generator to charge the car assuming you got some gas ahead of time.

Tesla was pretty cool, they waived all supercharger costs in the evacuation areas.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Sedans have always had a broader fan base than sports cars, sporty/pony cars, and muscle car sedan variants. Mainstream vs niche.

I'm still not seeing all that many Teslas on the Jersey side of the Greater Philadelphia region, and it's not because there aren't any high-income neighborhoods/townships.



So, too much reliance on "tech" combined with not enough willingness to enjoy stepping away from it from time to time? Or even know how to?


Norm

Agreed on the sedan being more practical. That said, the Model Y SUV now outsells the Model 3 by quite a bit since most folks want a SUV for some reason, even if they don't need the space.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

But your complaints with Camaro being loud, aggressive and childish equally can apply to Mustang and Challenger. Those apply to the entire segment. If that's someone's complaint, they fit in a Lexus, not any pony car or sports car.

A tiny trunk and poor visibility doesn't explain the camaro's shrinking customer base and bleeding existing owners to their competition. The camaro has had a poor trunk situation for generations. And before the window sills were so high, the frontend was super long - so it's had visibility issues for generations. Maybe not claustrophobic-like, but if you're used to what came before you'd adapt to what it is now easily.

The style of the camaro just comes off less mature than the mustang and charger/challenger. With the dodge offerings doing the best because they're the least loud styling of the 3 brands. Same look for like a decade and it's relatively subdued.

The camaro draws people's attention, but not in a good way...but rather a judgmental way as the camaro is neither a status symbol, nor is it old. Your avg 50 year old buyer (that's the low end avg age of new pony car buyers) isn't looking to be seen as trying too hard (usually) and doesn't want to deal with the crap of justifying their camaro to everyone they know. Something that they wouldn't have to do with pretty much any of the competition.


Also, i can guarantee you that nobody knows VW owns bugatti ...even to people who know what a bugatti is. It would surprise most people to know how many of car brands are actually owned by one of a handful of mega corps ...and in the end those umbrella companies dont care about making that well known. Lambo doesn't go around advertising being owned by audi and audi doesn't flaunt it's VW parent ... they stay separate ..and so their individual achievements dont roll up. VW sells bugatti not to better VW's name, but because (before the pandemic, bugatti had a 9 billion pound profit for 2019. Sure, the veyron - with it's extremely low production numbers may be sold at a loss, but bugatti sells more than the veyron and can afford it because it sells cars based on those bragging rights. Nobody carries that over to VW.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

the cybertruck is exactly the kind of problem you get when you ask the wrong person what looks good - in this case, they built it to please a market of 1 and hope it aligns with others. I really doubt that will succeed.


and Yea, the american public wants cuv's and suv's and trucks. Which are all nearly universally boring and uninteresting vehicles that I could only imagine getting if i absolutely had to for some practical purpose that couldn't be managed by renting a vehicle the 1 or 2 days every few years i'd actually need it. The public wants stupid things and I can't see the world thru those eyes.

The only hope for all of the rest of us is that the platform is so adaptable to any kind of vehicle style that it is still worth some company's time to build something that will only sell some tiny fraction of what everyone else is buying. Or that you have crazy people like musk running other companies and they go "build me a car like this" and they do even though it looks like a cyber truck and most people think it's ridiculous.

We're not going to see companies take stylistic risks like the cybertruck in the future. It's all going to be safe neutral things to make the stock holders happy with everyone too afraid to fail the next quarterly earnings predictions.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

A tiny trunk and poor visibility doesn't explain the camaro's shrinking customer base and bleeding existing owners to their competition. The camaro has had a poor trunk situation for generations. And before the window sills were so high, the frontend was super long - so it's had visibility issues for generations. Maybe not claustrophobic-like, but if you're used to what came before you'd adapt to what it is now easily.

The style of the camaro just comes off less mature than the mustang and charger/challenger. With the dodge offerings doing the best because they're the least loud styling of the 3 brands. Same look for like a decade and it's relatively subdued.

The camaro draws people's attention, but not in a good way...but rather a judgmental way as the camaro is neither a status symbol, nor is it old. Your avg 50 year old buyer (that's the low end avg age of new pony car buyers) isn't looking to be seen as trying too hard (usually) and doesn't want to deal with the crap of justifying their camaro to everyone they know. Something that they wouldn't have to do with pretty much any of the competition.


Also, i can guarantee you that nobody knows VW owns bugatti ...even to people who know what a bugatti is. It would surprise most people to know how many of car brands are actually owned by one of a handful of mega corps ...and in the end those umbrella companies dont care about making that well known. Lambo doesn't go around advertising being owned by audi and audi doesn't flaunt it's VW parent ... they stay separate ..and so their individual achievements dont roll up. VW sells bugatti not to better VW's name, but because (before the pandemic, bugatti had a 9 billion pound profit for 2019. Sure, the veyron - with it's extremely low production numbers may be sold at a loss, but bugatti sells more than the veyron and can afford it because it sells cars based on those bragging rights. Nobody carries that over to VW.

You’ve actually pointed out the issue without thinking you did. Compare the Gen6 to the Gen5 and trunk space is way worse (2 sets of golf clubs in the the trunk vs 0). Rear seat room is worse and other than over the hood on the Gen6, visibility is also worse. At some point people stop being willing to make those tradeoffs and more specifically L4 and V6 customers.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Case in point, you own a Miata, which is still an ICE car, so there is something a Tesla Model 3 Performance can't give you that you have to find in a Miata. Mazda infotainment is also not that great(lived with my friend's Mazda6 for a while), to the point that I actually prefer Chevy's Infotainment 3. Your own choice even shows that numbers and tech aren't everything.

I have been pretty clear that I am a big fan of Camaros and Corvettes as I have owned and modified a few over the years. I am just sharing some of my experience now that I own a Tesla and speculating about what an EV based Camaro could be like because I am a long time fan.

I like most here enjoy the connected driving experience you get from ripping through the gears of manual transmission, top down is even better as you can hear the exhaust wail even louder as you wind out the gears. I love it, that is why I have a Miata as the "fun car". For me, the Miata is a good choice because it is relatively inexpensive to own and modify. I don't have any canyons or any places for that matter where you can do some spirited driving. The lower performance of the Miata enables you to reach the limits of the car a little easier on the street. You can at least wind out a couple of gears to redline without risking jail time if you know what I mean. However, the newer ND2 Miatas are getting pretty quick, 181hp in a 2300lb car (0-60mph in just under 6 sec now) is about as fast as some older muscle cars used to be. The Miata is just fun, it always sold in fairly low numbers but still going strong for over 20 years.

As for an EV Camaro, like some others have mentioned I kind of hope they call it something different if they do come out with something. If we are stuck with an EV based sports coupe I just hope they build something that I would want to trade my Tesla for. It has to look great and more importantly it needs to be fun to drive. I know that some folks think that EVs are not fun but that is because most EVs on the road so far are boring appliances. However, if GM does it right I am convinced that folks will like it and convert. You may not convert the old school die hard folks that only buy the V8 with a manual transmission but what about the 4 and 6 cylinder Camaro buyers that prefer automatic transmission? Most will agree the 4 and 6 cylinder cars don't bring joy to your ears and a sluggish automatic transmission is nothing to get excited about when compared to instant response you get from a single speed trans with gobs of torque to plant you in the seat. Also, think about the younger generation that does not seem to be as addicted to the V8 sounds like some of us and they probably never learned to drive a stick anyway. They will buy the car mostly based on how it looks and performs.

I think GM should release a RWD version, AWD is great but it ruins some of the fun and adds quite a bit of weight over the nose. My wife has a RWD only Model 3 and I prefer the way it handles over the Performance Dual Motor. The RWD motor is in the rear so the car is balanced like a mid engine car and it feels great. If they do that and loosen up the traction and stability compared to how Tesla does it that would add some character to the driving experience. Also, carry over the mag ride suspension, track mode, etc. You would miss the sound and vibration but you would have a car the easily outperforms the current ZL1. Traction Control in EVs is completely different then what you experience in current muscle cars. The traction control is what took me by surprise the most. You can plant you foot and your will have to strain your neck to keep you head held forward but you won't slip the tires one bit, AWD RWD doesn't matter. The direct control you get over the electric motor and and the immediate feedback from wheel slip is ridiculous. Somehow the process is so much faster than traditional traction control systems that you can send full torque to a set of crappy EV tires and not spin. With traditional TC systems you have to wait for tire slip then the ECU signals to pull timing, reduce power, then the tires stop slipping and it signals to add power, etc. This back and forth process is super slow compared to EV traction control and the result it you get a lot more traction and grip out of crappy tires. I can plant my foot and send 500lbs of instant torque to the wheels without a screech to be heard. This is one of the reasons why EVs launch so hard. I am surprise the half shafts don't break in these Teslas because the launch is pretty violent.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

the cybertruck is exactly the kind of problem you get when you ask the wrong person what looks good - in this case, they built it to please a market of 1 and hope it aligns with others. I really doubt that will succeed.

We're not going to see companies take stylistic risks like the cybertruck in the future. It's all going to be safe neutral things to make the stock holders happy with everyone too afraid to fail the next quarterly earnings predictions.

The Cybertruck is definitely a polarizing vehicle but have you seen the pre-orders? Over 650,000 pre-orders! That is more than all the Camaros sold in the past 10 years.

https://www.statista.com/chart/4586/...nd-pre-orders/

To your point, you need a bit of a nut like Elon Musk to build crazy vehicles like this since most companies are run by the bean counters. Tesla is reaping the benefits of first mover advantage but I think GM will capture a lot of the EV market back if they execute well.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

As for an EV Camaro, like some others have mentioned I kind of hope they call it something different if they do come out with something. If we are stuck with an EV based sports coupe I just hope they build something that I would want to trade my Tesla for. It has to look great and more importantly it needs to be fun to drive. I know that some folks think that EVs are not fun but that is because most EVs on the road so far are boring appliances. However, if GM does it right I am convinced that folks will like it and convert. You may not convert the old school die hard folks that only buy the V8 with a manual transmission but what about the 4 and 6 cylinder Camaro buyers that prefer automatic transmission? Most will agree the 4 and 6 cylinder cars don't bring joy to your ears and a sluggish automatic transmission is nothing to get excited about when compared to instant response you get from a single speed trans with gobs of torque to plant you in the seat. Also, think about the younger generation that does not seem to be as addicted to the V8 sounds like some of us and they probably never learned to drive a stick anyway. They will buy the car mostly based on how it looks and performs.



I think GM should release a RWD version, AWD is great but it ruins some of the fun and adds quite a bit of weight over the nose. My wife has a RWD only Model 3 and I prefer the way it handles over the Performance Dual Motor. The RWD motor is in the rear so the car is balanced like a mid engine car and it feels great. If they do that and loosen up the traction and stability compared to how Tesla does it that would add some character to the driving experience. Also, carry over the mag ride suspension, track mode, etc. You would miss the sound and vibration but you would have a car the easily outperforms the current ZL1. Traction Control in EVs is completely different then what you experience in current muscle cars. The traction control is what took me by surprise the most. You can plant you foot and your will have to strain your neck to keep you head held forward but you won't slip the tires one bit, AWD RWD doesn't matter. The direct control you get over the electric motor and and the immediate feedback from wheel slip is ridiculous. Somehow the process is so much faster than traditional traction control systems that you can send full torque to a set of crappy EV tires and not spin. With traditional TC systems you have to wait for tire slip then the ECU signals to pull timing, reduce power, then the tires stop slipping and it signals to add power, etc. This back and forth process is super slow compared to EV traction control and the result it you get a lot more traction and grip out of crappy tires. I can plant my foot and send 500lbs of instant torque to the wheels without a screech to be heard. This is one of the reasons why EVs launch so hard. I am surprise the half shafts don't break in these Teslas because the launch is pretty violent.

Oh I am sure it can be done, just not at US$40k to 50k in the foreseeable future. Double that price if you want an EV Coupe that will match ZL1 on a track.

And I don't know, kids love the V8 growls in my experience.

[Petrol Head]

Too long of posts. You guys need a life lol.

Only thing I know is my Camaro gets attention in a good way and positive comments everywhere I go. Not sure where someone on here lives but where I live the Camaro is a very sharp, attractive, well crafted design that everyone from 8 to 80 loves.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You’ve actually pointed out the issue without thinking you did. Compare the Gen6 to the Gen5 and trunk space is way worse (2 sets of golf clubs in the the trunk vs 0). Rear seat room is worse and other than over the hood on the Gen6, visibility is also worse. At some point people stop being willing to make those tradeoffs and more specifically L4 and V6 customers.

<rant>

Out come the golf clubs again (sigh).

What is missing is not space for 2 sets of golf clubs, but the only thing that can get people excited about a product: genuine passion and genuine care. It seems GM doesn't really care anymore, they are raking in the dough even with mediocre products at best, gradually shifting their business towards China to keep up the illusion of an upward trajectory, parroting the obligatory woke slogan du jour.

For a car, or really any product, to be exciting, to bring true change to the status quo takes leaders with personalities, ones that have guts to break away from the mold, acumen to deeply understand the field, and grit to follow through.

Now I am not a real, in-depth car guy, I just love the Camaro, I'm a software developer, so bear with me through these examples—it takes an Elon Musk (who can hardly speak and is a complete nerd), a Steve Jobs (arguably one of the biggest a-holes ever to manage a tech company), heck, even a Bill Gates (a nerd turned to billionaire to embarrassment), who all have/had a few things in common: they 1) are extremely talented and capable, 2) have extremely strong vision with absolute, undeniable, remarkable passion for it 3) can successfully project a reality distortion field, at least long enough to create a substantial following and sway the market.

GM, just like Microsoft, may well be on their way to irrelevance. Sure, their financial results are still positive and GM is currently "successful globally" (meaning in China and who cares anyway), but even a single person like Elon Musk (who I'm no fan of, by the way) can give them a very, very tough run for their money.

</rant>

[90503]

FWIW...I just don't see any brand loyalty transferring over from ICE to EV....The EV cars will necessarily be vastly different....I think styling and performance, track performance that is, will be increasingly less of a decision...

All the characteristics of the EVs, especially Tesla, that some of you are sharing have been very informative...As successful as the Teslas are, this tells me that even though they look like pre-WWII sedans and staff-cars, they still sell like hot-cakes...

Chevy and a Camaro EV seem so far behind the 8-ball, I can't see them becoming any kind of sales success...Camaro will lose the ICE brand loyalty, even from non-owners who did not buy into the 6th Gen (I kept my 5thGen)...A lot of owners will likely take their ICE Camaros to the grave and never purchase an EV. Chevy and Camaro really have their work cut out for them, especially if they ditch ICE. If there is no EV Camaro, and the name just ends again, at this point it wouldn't be surprising.

Just my random $.02

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

<rant>

Out come the golf clubs again (sigh).

What is missing is not space for 2 sets of golf clubs, but the only thing that can get people excited about a product: genuine passion and genuine care. It seems GM doesn't really care anymore, they are raking in the dough even with mediocre products at best, gradually shifting their business towards China to keep up the illusion of an upward trajectory, parroting the obligatory woke slogan du jour.

For a car, or really any product, to be exciting, to bring true change to the status quo takes leaders with personalities, ones that have guts to break away from the mold, acumen to deeply understand the field, and grit to follow through.

Now I am not a real, in-depth car guy, I just love the Camaro, I'm a software developer, so bear with me through these examples—it takes an Elon Musk (who can hardly speak and is a complete nerd), a Steve Jobs (arguably one of the biggest a-holes ever to manage a tech company), heck, even a Bill Gates (a nerd turned to billionaire to embarrassment), who all have/had a few things in common: they 1) are extremely talented and capable, 2) have extremely strong vision with absolute, undeniable, remarkable passion for it 3) can successfully project a reality distortion field, at least long enough to create a substantial following and sway the market.

GM, just like Microsoft, may well be on their way to irrelevance. Sure, their financial results are still positive and GM is currently "successful globally" (meaning in China and who cares anyway), but even a single person like Elon Musk (who I'm no fan of, by the way) can give them a very, very tough run for their money.

</rant>

You can discount my example of golf clubs alllllllll you want. It’s just an indication of one potential customer. It is indicative of what was a bigger trunk on the Gen5 that got smaller on the Gen6 and what is worse, is the ATS coupe off of the same architecture could easily accommodate 2 sets of clubs.

And for reference we’ve taken vacations with luggage and 2 sets of clubs in Gen5 Camaros both coupe and convertible, and C5 and C6 Corvettes coupe and convertible ANNNNNNNND a Cadillac XLR or two.

As I’ve said 100s of times, the Gen6 Camaro is an awesome car but a crappy coupe……which is part of why it isn’t selling.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

<rant>

Out come the golf clubs again (sigh).

What is missing is not space for 2 sets of golf clubs, but the only thing that can get people excited about a product: genuine passion and genuine care. It seems GM doesn't really care anymore, they are raking in the dough even with mediocre products at best, gradually shifting their business towards China to keep up the illusion of an upward trajectory, parroting the obligatory woke slogan du jour.

For a car, or really any product, to be exciting, to bring true change to the status quo takes leaders with personalities, ones that have guts to break away from the mold, acumen to deeply understand the field, and grit to follow through.

Now I am not a real, in-depth car guy, I just love the Camaro, I'm a software developer, so bear with me through these examples—it takes an Elon Musk (who can hardly speak and is a complete nerd), a Steve Jobs (arguably one of the biggest a-holes ever to manage a tech company), heck, even a Bill Gates (a nerd turned to billionaire to embarrassment), who all have/had a few things in common: they 1) are extremely talented and capable, 2) have extremely strong vision with absolute, undeniable, remarkable passion for it 3) can successfully project a reality distortion field, at least long enough to create a substantial following and sway the market.

GM, just like Microsoft, may well be on their way to irrelevance. Sure, their financial results are still positive and GM is currently "successful globally" (meaning in China and who cares anyway), but even a single person like Elon Musk (who I'm no fan of, by the way) can give them a very, very tough run for their money.

</rant>

Well said. The whole auto industry should be shocked by what Elon has done. This is what happens when you have engineering leading the company vs. marketing and bean counters. And as a software developer, you shouldn't be surprised since the whole auto industry was long overdue for someone to come along and shake things up. I mean the software in most vehicles is archaic, the systems are outdated the moment you buy them. You get out of your vehicles slow crappy infotainment system and log into your phone or computer is like a quantum leap. Most auto makers just resort to Carplay and Android Auto integration since the built in stuff blows.

This is where Tesla has attracted more than just folks interested in an EV. The software, over the air updates, fast google earth hi res maps, voice recognition,
streaming audio, games, netflix, hulu, youtube, web browser, etc. has ushered in a bunch of buyers as well.

While the traditional auto makers are better than Tesla at building cars at scale. I think they will struggle to compete from a software perspective unless they really start hiring some developers to build the interfaces and UI vs. outsourcing to a bunch of 3rd party suppliers.

[Devstrike]

Originally Posted by 90503

FWIW...I just don't see any brand loyalty transferring over from ICE to EV....The EV cars will necessarily be vastly different....I think styling and performance, track performance that is, will be increasingly less of a decision...

All the characteristics of the EVs, especially Tesla, that some of you are sharing have been very informative...As successful as the Teslas are, this tells me that even though they look like pre-WWII sedans and staff-cars, they still sell like hot-cakes...

Chevy and a Camaro EV seem so far behind the 8-ball, I can't see them becoming any kind of sales success...Camaro will lose the ICE brand loyalty, even from non-owners who did not buy into the 6th Gen (I kept my 5thGen)...A lot of owners will likely take their ICE Camaros to the grave and never purchase an EV. Chevy and Camaro really have their work cut out for them, especially if they ditch ICE. If there is no EV Camaro, and the name just ends again, at this point it wouldn't be surprising.

Just my random $.02

This is spot on and I believe is the most likely reason that Ford is leaving it up to their customers to determine whether the ICE lives or dies. We all know if Ford is leaving it up to the Costumer base of the Mustang that the ICE will live on probably for the remainder of my lifetime now. Dodge which has shown fury in all attempt to compete with Ford will now probably do the same to avoid losing out on future Challenger sales.

Even if California bans gas engine vehicles they can make the ICE for states like Texas Kansas or Missouri. Wouldn't be the first time an automaker made vehicles for a certain market. Dodge did it recently with the last two years of the Caravan and Journey before they both ended in I believe 2020 to avoid increase costs of meeting up to states with higher emission restrictions.

There is no easy answer for this but I think Ford is tackling it the best way right now by giving its costumers the choice and I hope GM takes note of it and prolongs the ICE Camaro while also having an EV Camaro on the side. Hopefully that EV will not be a Crossover like the Mustang.