[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Part of the problem is the gearing. The Gen 2 MT-82s were geared so short you had to shift to 3rd to hit 60 and then shift to 5th right before the 1/4 mile mark and lose time or stay in 4th and lose time.

The 3rd Gen MT-82 went the opposite way where I think the gearing is too tall. Also the transmission is notoriously known for high rpm lockouts and the body mounted shifters move around. Honestly the entire MT-82 just needs to be scrapped.

Agreed 100%, but Mustang buyers don't seem to expect more from Ford so Ford probably doesn't see the need.

I would almost certainly be in a Mustang GT if not for the MT-82. I wanted to experience an engine with different dynamics than the LT, so I ended up in an E92 M3 instead. I look back at the MT-82 as a blessing now for keeping me out of an S550.

Love the 350's even though they are relatively slow for their price point, love that they have the Tremec, and seriously considered one of those but never got comfortable enough with the Voodoo to justify the price. I think it is worth low $50's at best considering the inherent risk and the competition available(ZL1).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I know Ford put the Cup 2s on the PP2 to make it compete with the SS1LE for 1 lap, but I just don't understand why they don't run 305 square on the GT350 now too?

I thought 5th Gen ZL1 vs GT500 the 500 lost at anything except acceleration that they had to do more than once. First 100-0 GT 500 win second 100-0 ZL1 win and the most important thing after 1 lap on the road course the 500 kept losing more and more time to the ZL1. Not positive though, I went from C5Z to Hellcat to Camaro6. I didn't like the 5th Gen Camaros at all.

The mags and websites are undeniably just fluffing out articles and comparisons for clicks and views, then we complain and they will just continue doing it and still never give us the comparison that SHOULD be done and the one we all want.

We'll know you're on your last leg when you turn to the sales thing haha.

The 500 won all acceleration tests, 2 of 4 road course tests(ZL1 won one and they tied on the other) and I think even some of the braking tests. MT said the car had bad brake fade, IIRC they were the only ones to mention the issue but people loved to cling to that fact of brake fade. The Camaro won the reviews because it was easier to live with, easier to drive hard in essence they thought it was a better grand tourer.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Part of the problem is the gearing. The Gen 2 MT-82s were geared so short you had to shift to 3rd to hit 60 and then shift to 5th right before the 1/4 mile mark and lose time or stay in 4th and lose time.

The 3rd Gen MT-82 went the opposite way where I think the gearing is too tall. Also the transmission is notoriously known for high rpm lockouts and the body mounted shifters move around. Honestly the entire MT-82 just needs to be scrapped.

That is what I thought. Thanks for explaining it!

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The only reasons I can think of for them not putting 305's up front on the 350 are that it could upset the balance, which was mentioned as one of the reasons it still beat the PP2. The other reason I can think of is that it would close the gap on the R, and Ford doesnt want that considering the price of the R.

I am sure M6G would say, if you want 305's buy the R.

It would probably upset the balance for sure. Also the reviews of the PP2 say on the street it's prone to tramlining and following every seem and crack in the road, to me that makes it sound like it's almost to aggressive. Like I said, it was their half assed ban aid to compete with the 1LE

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is what I thought. Thanks for explaining it!



It would probably upset the balance for sure. Also the reviews of the PP2 say on the street it's prone to tramlining and following every seem and crack in the road, to me that makes it sound like it's almost to aggressive. Like I said, it was their half assed ban aid to compete with the 1LE

Literally nothing more than mag racing fodder. A useless car the way it is equipped from the factory. Awful tires for street use, downright dangerous to use all year as a DD. No coolers, so just as useless on track.

Should have come with Michelin Sport 4S's. Would be a much better street match up against the 1LE.

Edir: To be fair the GY's on the 1LE arent great in cold or wet, better than Cup 2's for sure, and the 1LE has all the coolers for track duty, so much more justified tire choice.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Literally nothing more than mag racing fodder. A useless car the way it is equipped from the factory. Awful tires for street use, downright dangerous to use all year as a DD. No coolers, so just as useless on track.

Should have come with Michelin Sport 4S's. Would be a much better street match up against the 1LE.

Edir: To be fair the GY's on the 1LE arent great in cold or wet, better than Cup 2's for sure, and the 1LE has all the coolers for track duty, so much more justified tire choice.

Yep. I even think the whole late night after hours engineering team story is to just feed into the magazine fodder. That's probably the biggest fumble of the S550. Should have just put the coolers on it and charged the extra for it.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed 100%, but Mustang buyers don't seem to expect more from Ford so Ford probably doesn't see the need.

I would almost certainly be in a Mustang GT if not for the MT-82. I wanted to experience an engine with different dynamics than the LT, so I ended up in an E92 M3 instead. I look back at the MT-82 as a blessing now for keeping me out of an S550.

Love the 350's even though they are relatively slow for their price point, love that they have the Tremec, and seriously considered one of those but never got comfortable enough with the Voodoo to justify the price. I think it is worth low $50's at best considering the inherent risk and the competition available(ZL1).

I to loved the drive of the GT350 regardless of how it compared to other vehicles in terms of performance numbers. I'll gladly drive a slower vehicle if it is more fun and engaging relatively speaking. This isn't saying anything against the SS 1LE as I've never driven one. Considering how much I love the drive of my ZLE, I can only conclude thought SS 1LE is just as good if not better with much less weight over the nose. Hindsight being 20/20 I wish I would've tried the SS 1LE first.

I'm on outlier here to in regards to the transmission. I know the MT-82 is a train wreck from test drives and reading about them. I have no idea why they continue to put that heap in cars except for cost cutting reasons of course. Any way, I never like the shifter in the GT350 that everyone raved about. I even put a MGW shifter and that helped quite a bit, but it still never felt great to me. My first drive in the ZLE and I was stunned how great the stock shifter/transmission felt and enjoy it much more than the 350 combo (even with the MGW installed). The ability to have auto rev match at the flick of a paddle is very nice feature as well IMO.

Also FWIW, in regards to previous posts. I had 305/325s on my regular GT350 with no issues and it was a big upgrade over the regular sizes. Tramlining was the same so there were no drawbacks to doing it except weight I guess.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by minn19

I to loved the drive of the GT350 regardless of how it compared to other vehicles in terms of performance numbers. I'll gladly drive a slower vehicle if it is more fun and engaging relatively speaking. This isn't saying anything against the SS 1LE as I've never driven one. Considering how much I love the drive of my ZLE, I can only conclude thought SS 1LE is just as good if not better with much less weight over the nose. Hindsight being 20/20 I wish I would've tried the SS 1LE first.

I'm on outlier here to in regards to the transmission. I know the MT-82 is a train wreck from test drives and reading about them. I have no idea why they continue to put that heap in cars except for cost cutting reasons of course. Any way, I never like the shifter in the GT350 that everyone raved about. I even put a MGW shifter and that helped quite a bit, but it still never felt great to me. My first drive in the ZLE and I was stunned how great the stock shifter/transmission felt and enjoy it much more than the 350 combo (even with the MGW installed). The ability to have auto rev match at the flick of a paddle is very nice feature as well IMO.

Also FWIW, in regards to previous posts. I had 305/325s on my regular GT350 with no issues and it was a big upgrade over the regular sizes. Tramlining was the same so there were no drawbacks to doing it except weight I guess.

Thanks for posting, your experience with both makes for some great insight. I am not shocked the shifter in your ZLE is better than the 350's. Not anything against the 350, I just think GM is a step ahead of Ford in the drive train department, just wish they would take more risks.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Thanks for posting, your experience with both makes for some great insight. I am not shocked the shifter in your ZLE is better than the 350's. Not anything against the 350, I just think GM is a step ahead of Ford in the drive train department, just wish they would take more risks.

No prob, and I somewhat agree, but it is also what drew me to trying the ZLE. I know GM has had some highly publicized engine issues in Vettes etc and some oil pumps in early LT4s. But, as cool/unique as the Voodoo was........8250 blah blah blah.........I'll take older tried and true tech if it keeps my car out of service bay.

Especially in MN where the prime track/driving season is 6 months long if we are lucky. The first GT350 engine replacement took 3 months from when they had me do all of the testing to authorize the replacement engine to actually being done. Luckily this was OCT-DEC, but if it happens in the summer that is a 1/3-1/2 of my prime track/driving season being gone.

Knock on wood, 3k miles in on my LT-4 and it has burned zero oil.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Track oriented builds are alway slower in the 1/4 than more of a street orientation as weight is added to get there. But the GT350 sounds like a good 1/4 match up for M6 non 1LE SSes, or even M6 LT1s. I dont understand why M6 GT coyotes aren't faster. Or are the latest ones in that same range?

True, except the 1les have run 12.3s in magazines (c&d, r&t) just like the regular ss and I believe the stock class winner of the camaro fest drag races was a 1le. As well as the pp2 running as fast if not faster than any other m6 GT, albeit at a slower trap speed.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I had a long reply written out, but no need for you and me to just fill up page after page with the same nonsense. We all know you don't like the 350. So lets just get back to our regularly scheduled programming

BTW This is the 3rd or 4th time I am asking you....Where are all those comparison tests of the GT500 where it had all those advantages and lost? I am still waiting. Show me all the tests I missed I am legit asking lol Did i miss some that were done

Because as far as I know there is still only 2 out as of now(3 with upcoming shootout of GT500 VS STI). the MT mashup and the Icons test.




The put wider tires on the PP2 was because it was only the chance it had of getting close to the SSLE, and then didn't properly equip it with coolers. It was a band-aid fix.

remember the 5th gen ZL1 vs GT500. GT500 won almost every metric in every test yet lost every comparison. Subjectivity is needed in these reviews otherwise why even bother doing them. They can't be done on just numbers.



Yeah it's not looking good for the FoMoCo right now. Again I will just point out though, the MT review was a mashup of two different reviews. MT has 3 reviews of the GT500, with all of the data coming from 1 test. It's like they are just fluffing out articles to fill pages and clicks C&D just had their initial review and R&T had nothing since the vegas event.....do they not have a test car yet or one in their fleet like WTF Ford.



Glad I wasn't the only one that saw it. Yes the 1LE is lighter, but as the article pointed out the tires provided more grip for the PP2. wider tires = more grip, more grip = better braking, more grip = better lateral G.

I haven't turned to sales yet so I think I am still in some good graces haha



Thank you.

I would guess for the M6 Coyote it has to be something with gearing in the MT-82 and overall gear ratio that lack of low end can't make up for. the A10 is pretty aggressively geared can make up for that lack of low end. But not 100% on that.

Yea the longer gearing isn't as well suited for the 5.0 imo, the a10 really helps the 5.0 stay in the power band.

But the part about the track versions being slower isn't necessarily true, 1le's and pp2s have been tested to be as fast as their non track counterparts.

I think the gt350 has tighter gearing than the 18+ GTs but still lacks the low end grunt to get it moving initially, because once it's up and moving it's booking it.

[BlaqWhole]

You guys have to remember that the MT-82, while most performance enthusiasts complain about it, it is perfect for the vast majority of buyers who are all not racing this car. It is very low cost. And if you want something better then you have to step up to a better car. So Ford is not going to put anything better in the GT. Not when they have to warranty the thing. And definitely not on a vehicle that dealerships have been selling extremely cheap for a long time.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Yea the longer gearing isn't as well suited for the 5.0 imo, the a10 really helps the 5.0 stay in the power band.

But the part about the track versions being slower isn't necessarily true, 1le's and pp2s have been tested to be as fast as their non track counterparts.

I think the gt350 has tighter gearing than the 18+ GTs but still lacks the low end grunt to get it moving initially, because once it's up and moving it's booking it.

Those are very valid points. The SS and the 1LE share the same engine though which has plenty of low end grunt which is why they can run similar 1/4 times.

My point to the 350 is that like you said the VooDoo has nothing low end it needs to be screaming in the upper RPMs. That kind of engine set up is better suited for the track and not the strip.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

The Mustangs do sound better, but it's so laughable when that's how they win a head to head after they lost every performance metric.

I personally did not mind that the 350 won because it was just their opinion. All I wanted to know was what the performance numbers were and the pricing between the two. Anyone with an opinion can write an article and proclaim this or that as the winner and it wouldn't mean much.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I think they are taking the PP2s fastest lap, so the first hot lap. I also didn't realize, until this article, that the PP2 has more tire than the 350. Like why wouldn't Ford put the 305s on the "updated" 350 now????????

So they are comparing fastest lap for fastest lap or are they comparing each lap? Like, PP2's best lap is the first one and 350's best lap was the 3rd one and those got compared? Or they compared PP2 lap 1 to 350 lap 1 and so on? Because that info could be very misleading depending on the methods they used?

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

As others have said, they've done it before. Ford is scared and covering their ass.

Yep, but I doubt we'll see the real comparison we all want because of Ford not allowing it.

I don't think Ford realized the fight they were getting into against the ZL1 and ZLE...and based on price, against the Z06. I'll leave the ZR1 out just to be fair. I think we would have seen a match up by now if the 500 had a shot of winning.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

You are kind of condescending on the PP2 vs GT350 metrics and 1LE vs ZL1 metrics, but also have a great point that the 1LE is lighter so it should be better at those metrics. I do think the PP2 only wins those because of the tires though. Tires are the biggest performance aspect on all of these cars and alot of people do not understand that.

Yeah I just love it when the Mustang fanbois are losing at all performance conversations so they bring up sales. We aren't debating sales here.
Agree on the multiple years of Ford fumbles and failures.


So spot on that it's still slow, unreliable, and even more expensive.

The main point is that the GT350 despite it's cost and the more powerful engine and trans is now relegated to battling the PP2 which was built using half measures. And even against the PP2 there is still some areas where it does not perform as good. The 350 could have been optioned up to $60K and then put up against the C8. Or the 350R. But we won't get to see that. But we did get to see a C8 optioned up by well over $10K and put up against a GT500. Would the 350 (non-R) have done as well if it was put up against the ZL1?

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by minn19

I to loved the drive of the GT350 regardless of how it compared to other vehicles in terms of performance numbers. I'll gladly drive a slower vehicle if it is more fun and engaging relatively speaking. This isn't saying anything against the SS 1LE as I've never driven one. Considering how much I love the drive of my ZLE, I can only conclude thought SS 1LE is just as good if not better with much less weight over the nose. Hindsight being 20/20 I wish I would've tried the SS 1LE first.

If you want to trade for a day just let me know