[minn19]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The thing that bugs me about all the a la carte performance bits on Ford's top tier performance cars is that means the actual performance varies from car to car.

Do you have a GT or a GT*? A GT350 with or without the "handling package" or the coolers. or the...

You end up with PP2's that can run one good lap for the magazines before they overheat ...or GT350's that overheat on a parade lap ...or GT350/500 without the handling package ...or GT's that aren't GT*'s.....

All SS, ZL1, 1LE ...are the same performance spec

I don't disagree. For all their weird Fordisms and crap quality/reliability issues, I don't get how they are selling so well and the Camaro is on life support. Especially when an SS 1LE can beat a regular GT350 and hang with an R (drivers being equal of course).

They must be that much better at marketing. If my GM experiences weren't so bad in the early to mid 90s, I would've tried a Camaro SS 1LE over a GT350. I wish I would have as I would've saved a ton of cash.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The GT500 has only been compared against the RE, a Ferrari and Porsche and then the mash up of two different articles from MT.

C&D only has the vegas event and their first drive. R&T has nothing cars.com has nothing To say it's hand picked what it's reviewed against is false because for the most part it hasn't been tested against anything yet. There are only two tests comparing it to something else. the MT mashup of two different articles and the icons video.

The GT500 so far has had some advantage or several advantages in every comparo that it has been involved in. Whether these cars are being picked intentionally or it just so happens that they're getting compared is up for debate. But in each of those situations, even with the advantages, it has still managed to lose at something for some damn reason. Which is insane when you think about it. That with a 6 year period of time being developed it can still manage to get bested by cars that are at a serious disadvantage.

Originally Posted by shaffe

To be fair in our countless back and forths I have asked you several what if questions and you never bit either lol.

Those were questions about "what if" the ZL1 was to lose to a SS or other hypotheticals. Whenever there were questions related to something based in reality I have answered. I have more than several times mentioned the issues with the Hellcat blowers and driveshafts. Those are well known and well documented issues. The early Z06 overheating issues are likewise well known. And I've openly acknowledged that. I never acted like any of these were non-issues like slither tried to do about the oil issues with the Voodoo despite there being 2 previous GT350 owners all reporting those issues.

Originally Posted by shaffe

BUT this is much like the C8 VS C7. You are looking for anyway to trash the GT350 and just looking at the stat sheet. ( I did something similar with the C7 VS C8, not in the trashing mode like you but was expecting more)

The C7 vs C8 test showed the C7 braked better, and put up better handling numbers yet once they got the cars on the road course the C8 put up better lap times. Exact same with the GT350 VS pp2 here. the PP2 might have better stats in the box but on the course where it counts the GT350 was 2 seconds faster than the PP2 was.

That is a Corvette to another Corvette. Does the Camaro SS put up better stats than the C8? Does any Camaro costing over $10K less put up better stats? The GT PP2 is NOT a Shelby. It is an entry level V8 Mustang with a PP2 suspension. And it does better than the Shelby in certain respects. And it is cheaper. So there is a HUGE difference.

Originally Posted by shaffe

So you are suggesting C&D slowed down the PP2 on purpose to protect the GT350....Come on Blaq you are better than that lol

I never said that. What I suggested was that the GT PP2 had to be built with a handicap so that it would not match or beat the GT350. This is something I said before. The SLE was soo much of a performer that if Ford wanted to beat it, they would probably have to make it outperform the GT350. So they handicapped it by not giving it the proper coolers so that even if it does nip at the GT350's heels, it won't be able to sustain that level of performance. And according to the article, that is exactly what looks like started to happen. The GT PP2 started to fade off. Which is why I asked if it the results they used was after the first lap or after several laps. I want to know if they used the results that made the GT350 look better.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT500 so far has had some advantage or several advantages in every comparo that it has been involved in. Whether these cars are being picked intentionally or it just so happens that they're getting compared is up for debate. But in each of those situations, even with the advantages, it has still managed to lose at something for some damn reason. Which is insane when you think about it. That with a 6 year period of time being developed it can still manage to get bested by cars that are at a serious disadvantage.

What are you even talking about? Advantage in every comparison? It has been in 1 legit comparison and one comparison that was just a mash up from two different articles. What are these other comparisons that give the GT500 every advantage and still loses in?

Yes acceleration in the mash up test it lost to the less powerful, 600 pounds lighter mid engine vette but both the base CFTP were faster around VIR.
Now in that article "Apparently, it was, as GM invited Randy Pobst, photographer Robin Trajano, videographer Alex Valencia, and me to Virginia International Raceway for a few hours of back-to-back lapping of two identical-looking C8 Corvettes: "

In the GT500 standalone article which was posted 3 days later

"We went to VIRginia International Raceway to grab the reins and yell, "Giddyup!""

MT just mashed up two different reviews that both happened at VIR. Who knows when they even tested the cars. They probably went to VIR with the GT500 bc they had data on the C8 and said a C8 Vs GT500 article will get tons of clicks/reads

Then there was the Icons test.
The GT500 beat the RE - which some here said it would not. GT500 down on power, down on torque but you are right, serious advantage for the GT500 there.
Then lost to a $300,000 Ferrari in the 1/4. The Ferrari has more HP, and weighs almost 600 pounds less. Serious advantage for the GT500 there again.

and then was a few tenths behind a $180K Porsche GT3RS on a road course. A car that according to Randy is one of the best track cars out there. Yes GT500 had the power and torque advantage but was almost 1,000 pounds heavier

Those are the only comparisons out right now for the GT500 unless I missed something. Road & Track has nothing, Car & Driver has nothing

What other comparisons are out there , as far as I know these are the only 2 and one of which is a mash up of two different articles. If there were ones I missed, I will gladly shut up and take the L. But you are making it seem like the GT500 has been in dozens of comparison test already

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Those were questions about "what if" the ZL1 was to lose to a SS or other hypotheticals. Whenever there were questions related to something based in reality I have answered. I have more than several times mentioned the issues with the Hellcat blowers and driveshafts. Those are well known and well documented issues. The early Z06 overheating issues are likewise well known. And I've openly acknowledged that. I never acted like any of these were non-issues like slither tried to do about the oil issues with the Voodoo despite there being 2 previous GT350 owners all reporting those issues.
.

I am not say you didn't. That comment was someone asked Slither if Ford made the GT PP2 have everything the R does in a few years would the R still be special. He said he doesn't deal in what ifs. That is a hypothetical. I just found it odd you called him out on that when I have asked you hypotheticals as well and you basically said the same thing that you don't deal in what ifs.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That is a Corvette to another Corvette. Does the Camaro SS put up better stats than the C8? Does any Camaro costing over $10K less put up better stats? The GT PP2 is NOT a Shelby. It is an entry level V8 Mustang with a PP2 suspension. And it does better than the Shelby in certain respects. And it is cheaper. So there is a HUGE difference.

But the Shelby was better in acceleration, faster on the road course where it matters.

according to Car and Driver the SS 1LE puts up better braking and better skid pad numbers than the ZL1....yes marginally better but its still better in the stat box whats your answer to that?

It's the same thing with this GT350 and PP2 comparison. PP2 might have had a better stat line in SOME areas but overall the GT350 still outperformed it.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

according to Car and Driver the SS 1LE puts up better braking and better skid pad numbers than the ZL1....yes marginally better but its still better in the stat box whats your answer to that?

It's the same thing with this GT350 and PP2 comparison. PP2 might have had a better stat line in SOME areas but overall the GT350 still outperformed it.

Interesting data.

SS 1LE will out brake the ZL1 makes more sense to me based on vehicle weight and better tires on the 1LE than a base ZL1, whereas the PP2 and GT350 weigh very close to the same, with the advantage going to the 350. An opposite position from the SS 1LE to ZL1 comparison no?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Interesting data.

SS 1LE will out brake the ZL1 makes more sense to me based on vehicle weight and better tires on the 1LE than a base ZL1, whereas the PP2 and GT350 weigh very close to the same, with the advantage going to the 350. An opposite position from the SS 1LE to ZL1 comparison no?

Exactly what I was going to say.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don't disagree. For all their weird Fordisms and crap quality/reliability issues, I don't get how they are selling so well and the Camaro is on life support. Especially when an SS 1LE can beat a regular GT350 and hang with an R (drivers being equal of course).

They must be that much better at marketing. If my GM experiences weren't so bad in the early to mid 90s, I would've tried a Camaro SS 1LE over a GT350. I wish I would have as I would've saved a ton of cash.

There happens to be a discussion on this topic now in another thread. Many believe the Chevy has the best performance product money can buy but the public doesn't know it.

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=26

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

What are you even talking about? Advantage in every comparison? It has been in 1 legit comparison and one comparison that was just a mash up from two different articles. What are these other comparisons that give the GT500 every advantage and still loses in?

Yes acceleration in the mash up test it lost to the less powerful, 600 pounds lighter mid engine vette but both the base CFTP were faster around VIR.
Now in that article "Apparently, it was, as GM invited Randy Pobst, photographer Robin Trajano, videographer Alex Valencia, and me to Virginia International Raceway for a few hours of back-to-back lapping of two identical-looking C8 Corvettes: "

In the GT500 standalone article which was posted 3 days later

"We went to VIRginia International Raceway to grab the reins and yell, "Giddyup!""

MT just mashed up two different reviews that both happened at VIR. Who knows when they even tested the cars. They probably went to VIR with the GT500 bc they had data on the C8 and said a C8 Vs GT500 article will get tons of clicks/reads

Then there was the Icons test.
The GT500 beat the RE - which some here said it would not. GT500 down on power, down on torque but you are right, serious advantage for the GT500 there.
Then lost to a $300,000 Ferrari in the 1/4. The Ferrari has more HP, and weighs almost 600 pounds less. Serious advantage for the GT500 there again.

and then was a few tenths behind a $180K Porsche GT3RS on a road course. A car that according to Randy is one of the best track cars out there. Yes GT500 had the power and torque advantage but was almost 1,000 pounds heavier

Those are the only comparisons out right now for the GT500 unless I missed something. Road & Track has nothing, Car & Driver has nothing

What other comparisons are out there , as far as I know these are the only 2 and one of which is a mash up of two different articles. If there were ones I missed, I will gladly shut up and take the L. But you are making it seem like the GT500 has been in dozens of comparison test already

Do you want to go over each comparison? because I'm pretty sure we'll find that in the majority of cases the 500 has had several advantages and still managed to lose somewhere.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I am not say you didn't. That comment was someone asked Slither if Ford made the GT PP2 have everything the R does in a few years would the R still be special. He said he doesn't deal in what ifs. That is a hypothetical. I just found it odd you called him out on that when I have asked you hypotheticals as well and you basically said the same thing that you don't deal in what ifs.

Ok so I was mistaken on what the question was due to all the back and forth. The question was about if the GT came with GT350 stuff, like you said. To which he replied that he doesn't deal in what ifs. If you want to compare that to my replies to you then post those comments. But the way I remember it was that you asked me if, in the future, if the SS outperforms the ZL1, then would I blah blah blah. Or something to that effect. I believe I at some point did explain that there is no way a SS of the same Gen would outperform a ZL1. And I believe I also mentioned that the current Gen SS outperforms the previous Gen ZL1 and that is fine because it shows progression. Your questions were based on if current lower trim level Camaros outperformed higher trim level Camaros. And for the record I did say that would be stupid if GM built them like that. Which is what happens with the GT350.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Interesting data.

SS 1LE will out brake the ZL1 makes more sense to me based on vehicle weight and better tires on the 1LE than a base ZL1, whereas the PP2 and GT350 weigh very close to the same, with the advantage going to the 350. An opposite position from the SS 1LE to ZL1 comparison no?

The point still stands Blaq wants to bash the GT350 because in two metrics on the stat sheet the GTPP2 did better. But once it went to the track, everything favored the GT350, it was more planted, more controlled, braked into corners better, and oh yeah it was faster. The point was it's possible for a lower level model to perform better in certain areas on a stat sheet but still lose everywhere else. that is what my SS1LE to ZL1 Example was pointing out.

C&D said the PP2 got its braking advantage and skid pad advantage from having 305 tires upfront vs the staggered set up on the 350, but literally everything else the GT350 was better at.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Do you want to go over each comparison? because I'm pretty sure we'll find that in the majority of cases the 500 has had several advantages and still managed to lose somewhere.

I did go over every comparison....there is only two out right now that I am aware of. What comparisons am I missing

Unless you are talking about us bench racing here comparing it to other reviews of other cars. But I am going off of this statement

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT500 so far has had some advantage or several advantages in every comparo that it has been involved in. Whether these cars are being picked intentionally or it just so happens that they're getting compared is up for debate.

It's only been in two that I am aware of

[Laststandard]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Interesting data.

SS 1LE will out brake the ZL1 makes more sense to me based on vehicle weight and better tires on the 1LE than a base ZL1, whereas the PP2 and GT350 weigh very close to the same, with the advantage going to the 350. An opposite position from the SS 1LE to ZL1 comparison no?

Same tires on both SS 1LE and ZL1 - Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3, 285/30/20 F 305/30/20 R

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

C&D said the PP2 got its braking advantage and skid pad advantage from having 305 tires upfront vs the staggered set up on the 350, but literally everything else the GT350 was better at.

Makes sense on the wider fronts.

No argument for your other examples

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

There is no denying Ford has had a bunch of misteps this gen.



True but I wonder how much those handling packs actually do. On the 350 its adjustable strut tops and gurney flap and on the 500 its wickers and gurney flap. on the 350 I can see the adjustable strut tops making a difference to fine tune stuff, but the flaps and wickers. How much do those really do? I am asking because I do not know

That's a fair question, I dont think their game changers anyways and gurney flaps make sense to be optional for those looking for max speed not handling. Still the camber plates should just be a part of the gt350 package.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

The GT500 did have the handling package. But was told camber plates didn't come with it. Weird that the gt350 handling comes with camber plates and almost half the price. $1500 for gunny and wickers seems pretty steep on the gt500.

I figured it did, I mean you don't put a roll cage in the back but not include the handling pack..... you just don't do (disclose) the track alignment lol

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Interesting data.

SS 1LE will out brake the ZL1 makes more sense to me based on vehicle weight and better tires on the 1LE than a base ZL1, whereas the PP2 and GT350 weigh very close to the same, with the advantage going to the 350. An opposite position from the SS 1LE to ZL1 comparison no?

Less weight yes, better tires no, they have the same tires.