[NW-99SS]

What's odd is I don't know anyone who contests the Viper ACR lap times...

Yet that car had a team of race engineers who went to every track with the car and tweaked the suspension and aero, completely different/off from any owner's manual settings.

I'm not bashing the ACR...I respect it and love the car and mission. My point is, anyone who suggests an owner's manual setting is a mod is complete tool and fanboy.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

What's odd is I don't know anyone who contests the Viper ACR lap times...

Yet that car had a team of race engineers who went to every track with the car and tweaked the suspension and aero, completely off of any owner's manual settings.

I'm not bashing the ACR...I respect it and love the car and mission. My point is, anyone who suggests an owner's manual setting is a mod is complete tool and fanboy.

Yep, the ACR is just a highly adjustable, STOCK vehicle.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

This ^ someone who buys the top trim of any car probably isn't going to care what someone in their modified car can do. Someone could buy a Foxbody or F body and make it faster. Someone can make an SS faster than a ZL1.



See below



The answer is somewhere inbetween. It's something that MT did a bad job of explaining - as they have with almost all of the GT500 articles If the factory recommends stuff for track use/duty then I don't see it as a modification and if the automotive press is going to do it, then do it for every vehicle you test and make it known. Don't do it for some and not for others or don't say you did it for one and not make it known for the other.




MT has really been bad lately. the whole C8 vs GT500 was a mashup of different articles to fill page space. The cars weren't even there together. So I don't think it's fair to say it was picked to provide an advantage. MT has fluffed their pages with 3 different GT500 reviews all coming from the same test session.

With the exception of the icons video, no auto mag has tested the GT500 against anything yet.



The GT500 has only been compared against the RE, a Ferrari and Porsche and then the mash up of two different articles from MT.

C&D only has the vegas event and their first drive. R&T has nothing cars.com has nothing To say it's hand picked what it's reviewed against is false because for the most part it hasn't been tested against anything yet. There are only two tests comparing it to something else. the MT mashup of two different articles and the icons video.





Truth ^ if it is recommended I don't see it as a mod.



To be fair in our countless back and forths I have asked you several what if questions and you never bit either lol.



BUT this is much like the C8 VS C7. You are looking for anyway to trash the GT350 and just looking at the stat sheet. ( I did something similar with the C7 VS C8, not in the trashing mode like you but was expecting more)

The C7 vs C8 test showed the C7 braked better, and put up better handling numbers yet once they got the cars on the road course the C8 put up better lap times. Exact same with the GT350 VS pp2 here. the PP2 might have better stats in the box but on the course where it counts the GT350 was 2 seconds faster than the PP2 was.




This ^



So you are suggesting C&D slowed down the PP2 on purpose to protect the GT350....Come on Blaq you are better than that lol



This ^

I agree with most of what you said, I'll add that the icons comparo wasn't a mag either, former magazine guy with prefered magazine driver, though still what I would consider a reliable and valid source just giving you shit lol.

Also for all that is thrown out about the metrics the pp2 won vs the gt350, lateral g's and baking, it also got beat handily in the acceleration tests people here usually seem to care about the most, but I get people were focused on "handling ". Would have been nice to see a figure 8, gt350 probably gets the edge there.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by ZRacerLE

Yep, the ACR is just a highly adjustable, STOCK vehicle.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

Wonder what they think about the gt350s handling pack adjustable camber plates mentioned in the recent c&d article

Yep. That caught my eye also.

Our test (GT350) car was fitted with the optional $850 Handling package, which adds a Gurney flap to the rear wing and adjustable camber plates for a more aggressive setup.

At the Track
...but the GT350's steering is even better, more alive, communicative, and better at placing the car within an inch of where you want it. Perhaps it's the additional camber provided by the Shelby's camber plates that allow it to change direction more assertively...
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...-shelby-gt350/

It also strikes me as funny that "the most track capable Mustang ever produced" has an optional "Handling Package".

[minn19]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yep. That caught my eye also.
It also strikes me as funny that "the most track capable Mustang ever produced" has an optional "Handling Package".

It was worse than that. The earlier tech package GT350s had no diff or transmission coolers. The manual said if you want to track than you needed to get the necessary cooling equipment. Fair enough/makes sense, I bought a 16 tech package car only after my dealer consulted their contacts and Ford Performance. They assured me a relatively easy solution from them was forthcoming and it wouldn't be that expensive. Well they came out with it months later and it was not easy (you had to remove the entire transmission for a new one or drill into the stock one IIRC), it was very expensive and oh by the way Ford wasn't going to honor the transmission/diff warranties etc if you did it. Even if you had the work done at a Ford dealership. Mine ended up being trade assisted to a 17 that included all of the coolers going forward for the GT350.

People had their tech pack cars going into limp mode in heavy traffic or even some aggressive back roads driving, never mind the track. There was a lawsuit about it and I don't know how it turned out. Part of it was because of the advertising you are talking about. It didn't differentiate between cars and some people new to tracking cars.

All manufacturers do weird/shitty things, but Ford seems to be the leader. There already is a rumor of a TSB for a misfire for the GT500s.

Sorry for the rant, but I remember there were no tow hook locations for the GT350s either to hook anything up to. You had to "mod" one.

Most track capable my ass.........

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Yep. That caught my eye also.
It also strikes me as funny that "the most track capable Mustang ever produced" has an optional "Handling Package".

I always notice that as well with the gt500 and gt350, top tier cars with an optional handling pack . I wondered if the base that beat the c8 had, they never disclosed it so I assumed no.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by minn19

It was worse than that. The earlier tech package GT350s had no diff or transmission coolers. The manual said if you want to track than you needed to get the necessary cooling equipment. Fair enough/makes sense, I bought a 16 tech package car only after my dealer consulted their contacts and Ford Performance. They assured me a relatively easy solution from them was forthcoming and it wouldn't be that expensive. Well they came out with it months later and it was not easy (you had to remove the entire transmission for a new one or drill into the stock one IIRC), it was very expensive and oh by the way Ford wasn't going to honor the transmission/diff warranties etc if you did it. Even if you had the work done at a Ford dealership. Mine ended up being trade assisted to a 17 that included all of the coolers going forward for the GT350.

People had their tech pack cars going into limp mode in heavy traffic or even some aggressive back roads driving, never mind the track. There was a lawsuit about it and I don't know how it turned out. Part of it was because of the advertising you are talking about. It didn't differentiate between cars and some people new to tracking cars.

All manufacturers do weird/shitty things, but Ford seems to be the leader. There already is a rumor of a TSB for a misfire for the GT500s.

Sorry for the rant, but I remember there were no tow hook locations for the GT350s either to hook anything up to. You had to "mod" one.

Most track capable my ass.........

I heard of the missfire tsb... didn't know it was a "runour" lol maybe it's like the early hush hush notices about the 18 GT ticks and shift forks.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I heard of the missfire tsb... didn't know it was a "runour" lol maybe it's like the early hush hush notices about the 18 GT ticks and shift forks.

I just said rumour because no one has confirmed it yet or not. I'm pretty confident it will be though it seems.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by minn19

It was worse than that. The earlier tech package GT350s had no diff or transmission coolers. The manual said if you want to track than you needed to get the necessary cooling equipment. Fair enough/makes sense, I bought a 16 tech package car only after my dealer consulted their contacts and Ford Performance. They assured me a relatively easy solution from them was forthcoming and it wouldn't be that expensive. Well they came out with it months later and it was not easy (you had to remove the entire transmission for a new one or drill into the stock one IIRC), it was very expensive and oh by the way Ford wasn't going to honor the transmission/diff warranties etc if you did it. Even if you had the work done at a Ford dealership. Mine ended up being trade assisted to a 17 that included all of the coolers going forward for the GT350.

People had their tech pack cars going into limp mode in heavy traffic or even some aggressive back roads driving, never mind the track. There was a lawsuit about it and I don't know how it turned out. Part of it was because of the advertising you are talking about. It didn't differentiate between cars and some people new to tracking cars.

All manufacturers do weird/shitty things, but Ford seems to be the leader. There already is a rumor of a TSB for a misfire for the GT500s.

Sorry for the rant, but I remember there were no tow hook locations for the GT350s either to hook anything up to. You had to "mod" one.

Most track capable my ass.........

There is no denying Ford has had a bunch of misteps this gen.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I always notice that as well with the gt500 and gt350, top tier cars with an optional handling pack . I wondered if the base that beat the c8 had, they never disclosed it so I assumed no.

True but I wonder how much those handling packs actually do. On the 350 its adjustable strut tops and gurney flap and on the 500 its wickers and gurney flap. on the 350 I can see the adjustable strut tops making a difference to fine tune stuff, but the flaps and wickers. How much do those really do? I am asking because I do not know

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I always notice that as well with the gt500 and gt350, top tier cars with an optional handling pack . I wondered if the base that beat the c8 had, they never disclosed it so I assumed no.

The GT500 did have the handling package. But was told camber plates didn't come with it. Weird that the gt350 handling comes with camber plates and almost half the price. $1500 for gunny and wickers seems pretty steep on the gt500.

[Rodan]

Originally Posted by minn19

It was worse than that. The earlier tech package GT350s had no diff or transmission coolers. The manual said if you want to track than you needed to get the necessary cooling equipment. Fair enough/makes sense, I bought a 16 tech package car only after my dealer consulted their contacts and Ford Performance. They assured me a relatively easy solution from them was forthcoming and it wouldn't be that expensive. Well they came out with it months later and it was not easy (you had to remove the entire transmission for a new one or drill into the stock one IIRC), it was very expensive and oh by the way Ford wasn't going to honor the transmission/diff warranties etc if you did it. Even if you had the work done at a Ford dealership. Mine ended up being trade assisted to a 17 that included all of the coolers going forward for the GT350.

People had their tech pack cars going into limp mode in heavy traffic or even some aggressive back roads driving, never mind the track. There was a lawsuit about it and I don't know how it turned out. Part of it was because of the advertising you are talking about. It didn't differentiate between cars and some people new to tracking cars.

All manufacturers do weird/shitty things, but Ford seems to be the leader. There already is a rumor of a TSB for a misfire for the GT500s.

Sorry for the rant, but I remember there were no tow hook locations for the GT350s either to hook anything up to. You had to "mod" one.

Most track capable my ass.........

This kind of crap is a big part of why we're in a ZL1. We had a '17 GT PP1, and I was looking at GT350s to avoid spending a lot of $$ on the PP1 to make it trackable. After learning about all the problems with the engines, plus Ford's BS on 'trackability' and warranty, we bought our first Camaro.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Rodan

This kind of crap is a big part of why we're in a ZL1. We had a '17 GT PP1, and I was looking at GT350s to avoid spending a lot of $$ on the PP1 to make it trackable. After learning about all the problems with the engines, plus Ford's BS on 'trackability' and warranty, we bought our first Camaro.

Agreed.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by minn19

It was worse than that. The earlier tech package GT350s had no diff or transmission coolers. The manual said if you want to track than you needed to get the necessary cooling equipment. Fair enough/makes sense, I bought a 16 tech package car only after my dealer consulted their contacts and Ford Performance. They assured me a relatively easy solution from them was forthcoming and it wouldn't be that expensive. Well they came out with it months later and it was not easy (you had to remove the entire transmission for a new one or drill into the stock one IIRC), it was very expensive and oh by the way Ford wasn't going to honor the transmission/diff warranties etc if you did it. Even if you had the work done at a Ford dealership. Mine ended up being trade assisted to a 17 that included all of the coolers going forward for the GT350.

People had their tech pack cars going into limp mode in heavy traffic or even some aggressive back roads driving, never mind the track. There was a lawsuit about it and I don't know how it turned out. Part of it was because of the advertising you are talking about. It didn't differentiate between cars and some people new to tracking cars.

All manufacturers do weird/shitty things, but Ford seems to be the leader. There already is a rumor of a TSB for a misfire for the GT500s.

Sorry for the rant, but I remember there were no tow hook locations for the GT350s either to hook anything up to. You had to "mod" one.

Most track capable my ass.........

The thing that bugs me about all the a la carte performance bits on Ford's top tier performance cars is that means the actual performance varies from car to car.

Do you have a GT or a GT*? A GT350 with or without the "handling package" or the coolers. or the...

You end up with PP2's that can run one good lap for the magazines before they overheat ...or GT350's that overheat on a parade lap ...or GT350/500 without the handling package ...or GT's that aren't GT*'s.....

All SS, ZL1, 1LE ...are the same performance spec