[ember1205]

Originally Posted by haggler

If you wanna get into the weeds these are minimum specs:

Dexos2
https://360.lubrizol.com/Specifications/GM/GM-dexos2

Dexos1 gen3 (this is for "regular" cars)
https://360.lubrizol.com/Specifications/GM/GM-dexos1

Note the limits are tighter for dexos2.

DexosR, only info on M1 site, but I'd bet its basically a copy of old ESP (dexos2). M1 reps also admitted to corvette blogger that its basically the same formulation as the old ESP just repackaged.

https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...supercar-0w-40

"old" ESP formula, 0w-40 dexos2 specs: https://www.mobil.com/en-us/passenge...-formula-0w-40

"new" ESPx3 0w-40 with porsche approvals: https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...1-esp-x3-0w-40

attached lubrizol comparison tool, also available here: https://online.lubrizol.com/relperftool/pc.html#

all that to say....if dexos1gen3 5w30 is good enough for warranty...any of the rest will do...

It's still just marketing bullshit. GM keeps moving the goalpost on what the specs are even though the engines haven't changed.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by haggler

all that to say....if dexos1gen3 5w30 is good enough for warranty...any of the rest will do...

Haggler, thanks for digging all of that up and putting it together. I've been using ESPx3 (based largely on your posts here and in BITOG, despite being a Packers fan) since my 500 mi fill and will use my free dealership OCI at 1500, then I have one more batch of ESPx3 to use. I don't have any reservations about putting it in.

After watching the video again... If I have no priority on mpg/epa ratings, never drive below maybe 30 degrees F, don't want to harm my cats, not going to track my car but do generate some decent lateral G's from time to time... i could run the cheaper 15W-50 all the time, even without the vaunted DEXOS tax stamp on it. Or will repeated "cold" starts in AZ with 15W wear my bearings like cheese in a grater? It seems like if you don't care about mpg, then 50 weight is advantageous for all situations at full operating temp? Or am I over simplifiying? Basically, the guidance about putting 0W-40 back in after track day is just something they to have to say for mpg/epa conformance and in practice probably its not something (most) consumers actually are about?

[haggler]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Haggler, thanks for digging all of that up and putting it together. I've been using ESPx3 (based largely on your posts here and in BITOG, despite being a Packers fan) since my 500 mi fill and will use my free dealership OCI at 1500, then I have one more batch of ESPx3 to use. I don't have any reservations about putting it in.

After watching the video again... If I have no priority on mpg/epa ratings, never drive below maybe 30 degrees F, don't want to harm my cats, not going to track my car but do generate some decent lateral G's from time to time... i could run the cheaper 15W-50 all the time, even without the vaunted DEXOS tax stamp on it. Or will repeated "cold" starts in AZ with 15W wear my bearings like cheese in a grater? It seems like if you don't care about mpg, then 50 weight is advantageous for all situations at full operating temp? Or am I over simplifiying? Basically, the guidance about putting 0W-40 back in after track day is just something they to have to say for mpg/epa conformance and in practice probably its not something (most) consumers actually are about?

Above 0 degrees farenheit, 15w-50 is fine for your climate.
There are a couple reasons I wouldn't use 15w-50, or 5w-50 year round:
1) higher SAPS (sulphated ash). This generally known to be bad for DI and intake valves build up.
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/...mobil-1-15w-50
2) the CAT converter considerations are not baloney, although it would probably take well past the warranty to affect anything. In the document below, you can see the Phosphorus and zinc PPM, respectively. As you can see, even the c8 z06 oil doesn't use that much zinc and phos.

Mobil 1™
ESP X3 0W-40 900 990

Mobil™ 1
Supercar 0W-40 900 990

Mobil™ 1
Supercar 5W-50 1100 1200

Mobil 1™ 15W-50 1200 1320

Mobil 1™
FS X2 5W-50 930 1000

https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/m...-v2-9-1-22.pdf

3) What matters is HTHS. HTHS with ESPx3 is already 3.8 vs 4.5 for 15w50. "Regular" GM dexos1gen3 is ~3.0. IMO GM is wanted a more stout oil around the weight of a 5w30. The have been spec'ing 5w30 for the small block forever. With fuel economy regulations the way they are affecting oil, they could only get around this with going to a Xw40 weight. However, they didn't want a "euro" high SAPS oil; because it is bad for DI and intake valves. If you notice, Xw40 oils mostly are not certified API SP or SN+. This is because of fuel economy considerations. Also, the germans are going away from high SAPS oil too now....in my lady's boxster GTS4.0 with the flat six, it takes the same ESPx3 oil (although this is probably mostly because of the gas particulate filters in Europe).
4) M1 15w-50 is an old formula, there are newer methods for reducing wear than just high zinc and phos. These are not flat tappet engines.

Finally, If you are modified and catless only then would I consider it but #1 above still applies.

Edit: I missed the part about the ZL1 1LE. I recall this being due to the wet sump oil system and lateral G's. If I exclusively tracked that car I'd probably try to use the Supercar M1 5w-50 stuff. It looks like a newer formulation with less phos zinc and more organic anti-wear components.

[haggler]

Originally Posted by ember1205

It's still just marketing bullshit. GM keeps moving the goalpost on what the specs are even though the engines haven't changed.

Yes, what youre saying is true with one caveat...oil regulations have been going towards fuel economy. So the 5w30 mobil 1 synthetic of 20 years ago isn't the same as today for good and bad. There is a benefit to using Xw40 oil if you're car sees the track.

[haggler]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Haggler, thanks for digging all of that up and putting it together. I've been using ESPx3 (based largely on your posts here and in BITOG, despite being a Packers fan)

I read alot on that site during covid...then got sick of the crowd so now I am here

[keep_hope_alive]

Haggler and I discussed these differences a while back, https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...t=bitog&page=3

I was convinced that the ESP X3 0W-40 is suitable; as noted above, it adds Porsche C40 certification (and others) to the GM DEXOS 2 certification.

Given that this oil seems to provide the best combination of high spec compliance and lower cost (I also just paid $6 a quart), I don't understand why it was dismissed in the video.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by haggler

Yes, what youre saying is true with one caveat...oil regulations have been going towards fuel economy. So the 5w30 mobil 1 synthetic of 20 years ago isn't the same as today for good and bad. There is a benefit to using Xw40 oil if you're car sees the track.

I don't disagree that today's oil is very different from that of 20 years ago. My point is more along the lines of GM stated in 2015 (for the 2016 model year) that 5W-30 dexos1 was acceptable for street use in the LT1 motor. Now they say that the same motor, with the same design, same materials, same build, same tune, and same functionality requires 5W-30 dexosR for street use. And that's a standard that doesn't even exist. So, what changed? Simple - GM isn't making money off of certifying 5W-30 oil as dexos1 any more.

The specs of the engine didn't change one bit but the requirements for the oil did? That's specifically where I'm calling BS on this.

Let me put it a different way... Let's say you own a 2016 Camaro SS with the LT1 motor. What does your oil fill cap say? It say "SAE 5W-30 DEXOS" on it. That was the factory fill for the motor at the time.

Now, let's say that your oil fill cap got damaged or lost and you need to buy a new one. Do you know what the new one will have printed on it? Even though you specifically ordered the part for your 2016? It will say "SAE 0W-40 DEXOS" on it because that is the CURRENT factory fill that GM uses for that motor. Somehow your oil requirements have magically been changed by GM? No. And neither did any of those requirements get fundamentally changed on any model year after 2016 even though GM has been shifting things around in the background (and in the manuals) the entire time.

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Haggler and I discussed these differences a while back, https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...t=bitog&page=3

I was convinced that the ESP X3 0W-40 is suitable; as noted above, it adds Porsche C40 certification (and others) to the GM DEXOS 2 certification.

Given that this oil seems to provide the best combination of high spec compliance and lower cost (I also just paid $6 a quart), I don't understand why it was dismissed in the video.

Thanks for that link, I missed this one in the past. This is the level of detail I was looking for about the ESPX3 formulation. Makes me feel even more confident about using it. The autozone package deal with the current rebate available really makes this a good value.

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by ember1205

I don't disagree that today's oil is very different from that of 20 years ago. My point is more along the lines of GM stated in 2015 (for the 2016 model year) that 5W-30 dexos1 was acceptable for street use in the LT1 motor. Now they say that the same motor, with the same design, same materials, same build, same tune, and same functionality requires 5W-30 dexosR for street use. And that's a standard that doesn't even exist. So, what changed? Simple - GM isn't making money off of certifying 5W-30 oil as dexos1 any more.

The specs of the engine didn't change one bit but the requirements for the oil did? That's specifically where I'm calling BS on this.

Let me put it a different way... Let's say you own a 2016 Camaro SS with the LT1 motor. What does your oil fill cap say? It say "SAE 5W-30 DEXOS" on it. That was the factory fill for the motor at the time.

Now, let's say that your oil fill cap got damaged or lost and you need to buy a new one. Do you know what the new one will have printed on it? Even though you specifically ordered the part for your 2016? It will say "SAE 0W-40 DEXOS" on it because that is the CURRENT factory fill that GM uses for that motor. Somehow your oil requirements have magically been changed by GM? No. And neither did any of those requirements get fundamentally changed on any model year after 2016 even though GM has been shifting things around in the background (and in the manuals) the entire time.

My take is that the engineers are looking at engine failures *cough-AFM lifters-cough* and changing recommendations as information continues to come in. Just because the engine is the same doesn't mean the original spec was correct. I see the changing spec as a way for the engineers to admit they have issues without admitting they have issues.

The AFM lifters are actuated through oil passages, as I detail here: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617893

This correlation is my suspicion. It's also possible the new spec is associated with concerns with the PCV system and challenges with direct injection motors when compared to port injection for intake lifter build-up.

[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

Haggler and I discussed these differences a while back, https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showt...t=bitog&page=3

I was convinced that the ESP X3 0W-40 is suitable; as noted above, it adds Porsche C40 certification (and others) to the GM DEXOS 2 certification.

Given that this oil seems to provide the best combination of high spec compliance and lower cost (I also just paid $6 a quart), I don't understand why it was dismissed in the video.

Lots and lots of good conversation going on here. To the last question, it wasn't necessarily dismissed, or I wouldn't have even brought it up. The point of the video was to clarify the oil spec'd in the owner's manuals and which ones are which and scenario's you would use them in. I wanted to call out that it isn't the 0W-40 that is called out in the guides and manuals from GM. My apologies if I misrepresented that intent.

I had direct conversations with members of the small block team when I did the research. It wasn't personal opinion based, it was professionally guided information directly from the team who designed and engineered the LT engines. Because of that, when they said "you can use it in a pinch, but I would stick to the Supercar 0W-40" that is the info I provided in the video.

[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by Capricio

Haggler, thanks for digging all of that up and putting it together. I've been using ESPx3 (based largely on your posts here and in BITOG, despite being a Packers fan) since my 500 mi fill and will use my free dealership OCI at 1500, then I have one more batch of ESPx3 to use. I don't have any reservations about putting it in.

After watching the video again... If I have no priority on mpg/epa ratings, never drive below maybe 30 degrees F, don't want to harm my cats, not going to track my car but do generate some decent lateral G's from time to time... i could run the cheaper 15W-50 all the time, even without the vaunted DEXOS tax stamp on it. Or will repeated "cold" starts in AZ with 15W wear my bearings like cheese in a grater? It seems like if you don't care about mpg, then 50 weight is advantageous for all situations at full operating temp? Or am I over simplifiying? Basically, the guidance about putting 0W-40 back in after track day is just something they to have to say for mpg/epa conformance and in practice probably its not something (most) consumers actually are about?

I was going to answer this, but Haggler answered it better than I could!

[FollowMyLine]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

My take is that the engineers are looking at engine failures *cough-AFM lifters-cough* and changing recommendations as information continues to come in. Just because the engine is the same doesn't mean the original spec was correct. I see the changing spec as a way for the engineers to admit they have issues without admitting they have issues.

The AFM lifters are actuated through oil passages, as I detail here: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617893

This correlation is my suspicion. It's also possible the new spec is associated with concerns with the PCV system and challenges with direct injection motors when compared to port injection for intake lifter build-up.

This. All of this. Just because it was originally spec'd with 5W-30 doesn't mean that long-term data hasn't changed with enough information for them to change the oil recommended.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by keep_hope_alive

My take is that the engineers are looking at engine failures *cough-AFM lifters-cough* and changing recommendations as information continues to come in. Just because the engine is the same doesn't mean the original spec was correct. I see the changing spec as a way for the engineers to admit they have issues without admitting they have issues.

The AFM lifters are actuated through oil passages, as I detail here: https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=617893

This correlation is my suspicion. It's also possible the new spec is associated with concerns with the PCV system and challenges with direct injection motors when compared to port injection for intake lifter build-up.

Will they continually update based on real-world data? Sure. But my point still remains that they all they are doing is making these small shifts and creating a ton more confusion than is necessary. And without drawing a hard line and notifying owners of prior years that "the rules have changed" due to something they learned along the way, they will have a very difficult time winning any cases in court due to their claims of needing to use oils that don't exist...

In other words - they previously claimed that 5W-30 dexos1 was fine for use on the street. If someone runs that in their 2023 and there's a failure, the onus will be on GM to prove that the oil was the root cause of the issue.

[keep_hope_alive]

Originally Posted by FollowMyLine

Lots and lots of good conversation going on here. To the last question, it wasn't necessarily dismissed, or I wouldn't have even brought it up. The point of the video was to clarify the oil spec'd in the owner's manuals and which ones are which and scenario's you would use them in. I wanted to call out that it isn't the 0W-40 that is called out in the guides and manuals from GM. My apologies if I misrepresented that intent.

I had direct conversations with members of the small block team when I did the research. It wasn't personal opinion based, it was professionally guided information directly from the team who designed and engineered the LT engines. Because of that, when they said "you can use it in a pinch, but I would stick to the Supercar 0W-40" that is the info I provided in the video.

Roger that, and I appreciate the video and research you did.

I used Supercar for the first two changes and ESP X3 for the last two. This is my daily driver and it sees a lot of highway miles. AFM is still active. The difference between Supercar and ESP X3 is not so much an issue of cost as availability and my schedule. I do the oil change myself and while I should just order the next fluid set now so it's ready, I'll likely wait until a day or two before and then find it. ESP X3 is readily available most places, Supercar is not. I will stick with 0W-40 and do not see myself ever using 5W-30 given the updated recommendation by engineering.

I think the real question is the difference between DEXOS R and DEXOS 2 - and if both are acceptable, then either oil is acceptable. This is where I would love to see some long-term testing results, including engine torture results and intake build-up results when using either spec.