[20Bluezl1]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

He already commented on that "And your also correct on internal volume. The minimum area is app 12-14 oz's capacity for the velocity or speed to slow enough that droplets are not lifted and pulled through. In fact all but 15% on average is pulled through 99% of cans on the market and still ingested. We trap 95%."

The restrictor is needed to keep velocity in check, otherwise the liquids won't drop out in the can and may be recycled right back into your intake. A full 3/8" bore (or close to it) would require a much larger can to handle the extra velocity. The MM can looks to be similar in size to me. Short answer is Elite is actually running some calcs on these designs, not sure MM is...

Totally understand makes sense. My understanding is that Elite PCV valve is used for any size can, does the same of port effect anything ?

So my question is,what are guys with 750+ HP using Elite E2 Ultra or just the E2-X. Also does the size of the hoses matter -6 or -8.

I know I'm probably over thinking this but my OCD kicks in and I also like to learn.

[ZX-10R]

I would run the Ultra can if you're pushing 100 + hp more than stock, Elite would need to comment at what point the restrictor should be swapped out - and then you have to find a place to mount the larger can, that's the challenge

[Chris 2018 ZL1 A10]

While the size of the PCV port makes for interesting conversation, let’s not forget that Elite has a standing challenge to put their CC in series with any competitors CC for a certain distance then reverse the CC sequence and repeat. In both scenarios, Elite says their can will outperform the competition.

I understand that the results of at least one challenge are still able to be viewed here.

[20Bluezl1]

Originally Posted by Chris 2018 ZL1 A10

While the size of the PCV port makes for interesting conversation, let’s not forget that Elite has a standing challenge to put their CC in series with any competitors CC for a certain distance then reverse the CC sequence and repeat. In both scenarios, Elite says their can will outperform the competition.

I understand that the results of at least one challenge are still able to be viewed here.

Yes I have read about that challenge. Again I do know there's alot of guys with 650+HP and I haven't heard them running the E2 Ultra. Also I would like a little more information on the restrictor that Elite sells. Does that need to be added to a line or does the PCV valve restrict?

What would be the ultimate Elite setup? I was thinking Black Braided Hose (what size), high flow check valves,(how many), flow restrictor.

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by Chris 2018 ZL1 A10

While the size of the PCV port makes for interesting conversation, let’s not forget that Elite has a standing challenge to put their CC in series with any competitors CC for a certain distance then reverse the CC sequence and repeat. In both scenarios, Elite says their can will outperform the competition.

Not many people are going to do that unfortunately, so it would be cool to have some MM owners post pics/video of their supercharger cover after 2k miles and see how it compares

[v8]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

At 4500 miles the mechanic thinks walnutting your valves will yield 25-30HP? So does that mean @ 20K miles, walnutting will yield 100 to 125 HP (assuming no catch can). I need someone to provide some real data here. Who’s seen proven HP losses at such low mileage? What’s your relationship with Elite, did they pay for the catch can, install or anything else? I’m happy you’re happy, but i can’t help but ask the above questions.

There was someone who posted a while back a dyno of a before and after cleaning and there was a difference, to make the inference there is a parallel correlation between mileage and HP is silly, going by your line of thinking eventually your engine would be in negative HP LOL. Its diminishing returns so while you may loose 25HP at a certain mileage, you might only loose 30HP when that mileage doubles. No one knows as no one has tested like that. But someone did test after they cleaned there valves and got HP back. That we know. I didn't witness it myself, but they posted the dyno graph it before and after.

[v8]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

v8 - I now see what you mean "fully ported" diverter on the MM (on the right) vs the Elite (sorry this posted upside down for some reason) - it's night and day. I'd like to hear from Elite why their port is so tiny

The reason for the big difference is our cars require a 1/8" restrictor to keep flow around 3.5 CFM. Elite puts that 1/8" restrictor under the blower (its part of the valve), Mightymouse has it built into their can (I can't remember if its on clean or dirty side) I put mine on clean side line going to throttle body.

[v8]

Originally Posted by ZX-10R

I trust the Elite guys to make smart engineering decisions, so I think this boils down to velocity through the can. These cans are still relatively small, and a 3/8" line is capable of moving a ton of flow under pressure (as I understand it the target is 3-4 cfm). The MM has a relief valve which vents if gets overpressurized, but when that happens it releases inside your engine bay - not good. v8 installs a restrictor "pill" on the clean side of his can, but I'm not sure why that makes any difference because flow is constant through the system. It shouldn't matter where the restrictor is located.

At this point I plan to just install the Elite restrictor. I will say it's much easier to adjust flow if it's not under the blower!

Great post but I will clarify a few things. GM designed the system to flow around 3.5 or so SCFM. They did this with a 1/8" restrictor placed inside their PCV valve, so with a 1/8" restrictor somewhere we can get that 3.5 SCFM

Now don't quote me but I think you need about 20"hg for a 1/8 orifice to flow around 3.5. If you are accelerating (not racing or anything) you are not getting 3.5 SCFM because you are going to be at less than 20"hg Its actually in my video, I made a remark somewhere.

The flow is not constant after you install a catch can. The one commonality is that we all use the throttle body for suction. Depending on throttle position you get maximum vacuum at deceleration with throttle closed, then idle is next, then when you drive the vacuum gets less the more you press on the gas. At wide open throttle you have virtually no vacuum. Thats why Elite and me use that second line to take over when the throttle body pretty much has no vacuum.

Where I installed my restrictor makes a big difference.

1st, at WOT the Elite system (secondary line) has to suck through the whole system (including the restrictor)

In mine, the secondary line bypasses the restrictor so the secondary line has no restrictor (much higher flow) I did this for four reasons

1. I don't believe there is much vacuum there so we need all we can get (no way that secondary line is going to produce about 20"hg of vacuum), I believe that high of vacuum would collapse that rubber elbow going to the throttle body. We are probably getting a few inches at best so we need maximum flow. (less vacuum means we need a wider diameter to flow)

2. At WOT there is more blowby so you need more evacuation

3. Secondary line will pretty much operates only at WOT, or large engine loads, so its barely used.

4. I can adjust flow very easily by drilling out the restrictor a bit if I want. ZX-10R caught onto this.

There is a pressure drop across the restrictor so things are different before and after it.

If we want to get even more technical we have to remember the pressure drop across a restrictive opening is proportional to the length of the restrictive section, and inversely proportional to the diameter of that section. So movement of the restrictor can do a number of things depending on where it is placed. You have to take into all that feet of tubing you are installing under your hood, it will effect flow. (suck though a foot of garden hose and then try again when its 10 feet long - do at your own risk, I do not take responsibility if anyone does this, but you get the idea)


Sorry for the delay in my responses guys I've been busy with a few other things.

Its great to see the interest.

[Chris 2018 ZL1 A10]

Originally Posted by v8

The flow is not constant after you install a catch can. The one commonality is that we all use the throttle body for suction. Depending on throttle position you get maximum vacuum at deceleration with throttle closed, then idle is next, then when you drive the vacuum gets less the more you press on the gas. At wide open throttle you have virtually no vacuum. Thats why Elite and me use that second line to take over when the throttle body pretty much has no vacuum.

Hi v8,

I completely agree with your comment regarding available vacuum at WOT in a normally aspirated engine. However, it would be my assertion that in a FI engine at WOT, not only do you NOT have any vacuum but rather a significantly higher manifold pressure, far above ambient (29.92”hg @ sea level) necessitating the need for a check valve to stop back flow. Furthermore, the SC at WOT probably creates vacuum in the intake similarly to what the engine creates in the manifold at idle. This of course, is only a supposition on my part. If what I’m saying is true, then it may not have been necessary for you to bypass the restrictor on your secondary vacuum line, though an excellent technique on a n/a engine. It would be interesting to see what a vacuum gauge placed on the secondary vacuum line at WOT in our LT4 engine has to say about it.

Thank you,
Chris

[Elite Engineering]

v8, I'll answer each point below inside your quote:








"Great post but I will clarify a few things. GM designed the system to flow around 3.5 or so SCFM. They did this with a 1/8" restrictor placed inside their PCV valve, so with a 1/8" restrictor somewhere we can get that 3.5 SCFM The OEM size is 3mm, we go just slightly larger to meet the 3.5 CFM goal. That is slightly more than a stock engine needs, but not excessive. This works for up to 1000 hp plus FI applications.

Now don't quote me but I think you need about 20"hg for a 1/8 orifice to flow around 3.5. If you are accelerating (not racing or anything) you are not getting 3.5 SCFM because you are going to be at less than 20"hg Its actually in my video, I made a remark somewhere.
Correct. Anytime a NA engine accelerates, or is at WOT, vacuum drops to near zero, even though a tremendous amount of incoming air is enetering. This is due to the reversion pulses that are created by the cam lobe overlap. Exhaust valve is not fully closed before the intake valve starts to open. This aids in scavenging, but no real usable vacuum is present. So we use a secondary vacuum source that takes over when IM vacuum drops below the vacuum generated by the Venturi barb. The checkvalves will open and close automatically to always default to the strongest suction source. This then provides full time evacuation unlike most every other can that solely relies of IM vacuum for evacuation suction.

The flow is not constant after you install a catch can. The one commonality is that we all use the throttle body for suction. Depending on throttle position you get maximum vacuum at deceleration with throttle closed, then idle is next, then when you drive the vacuum gets less the more you press on the gas. At wide open throttle you have virtually no vacuum. Thats why Elite and me use that second line to take over when the throttle body pretty much has no vacuum.
Exactly. Otherwise you not only allow pressure to build during these periods, but your also leaving most of the contaminants entering in the crankcase to contaminate the oil and increase wear. A very critical function most can sellers do NOT take into consideration.

Where I installed my restrictor makes a big difference.

1st, at WOT the Elite system (secondary line) has to suck through the whole system (including the restrictor)

In mine, the secondary line bypasses the restrictor so the secondary line has no restrictor (much higher flow) I did this for four reasons

1. I don't believe there is much vacuum there so we need all we can get (no way that secondary line is going to produce about 20"hg of vacuum), I believe that high of vacuum would collapse that rubber elbow going to the throttle body. We are probably getting a few inches at best so we need maximum flow. (less vacuum means we need a wider diameter to flow)

2. At WOT there is more blowby so you need more evacuation

3. Secondary line will pretty much operates only at WOT, or large engine loads, so its barely used.

4. I can adjust flow very easily by drilling out the restrictor a bit if I want. ZX-10R caught onto this.

There is a pressure drop across the restrictor so things are different before and after it.

If we want to get even more technical we have to remember the pressure drop across a restrictive opening is proportional to the length of the restrictive section, and inversely proportional to the diameter of that section. So movement of the restrictor can do a number of things depending on where it is placed. You have to take into all that feet of tubing you are installing under your hood, it will effect flow. (suck though a foot of garden hose and then try again when its 10 feet long - do at your own risk, I do not take responsibility if anyone does this, but you get the idea)


Sorry for the delay in my responses guys I've been busy with a few other things.

Its great to see the interest."


Excellent post! One thing to point out, the secondary suction source is NOT from a restriction of the air fliter. That would be a negative in so many ways. We use the Venturi Effect, capaple or generating over 28" of vacuum in ideal conditions, but here it is generally good for from as low as 2-3 to 6-8". Not the level of a belt driven vacuum pump, which is by far the best for a big boost build, but it is designed for the street.


The size of the hose can make a difference as v8 pointed out as well, and the standard hose is 3/8" id, which os equal to -8. We also use -10 for the Ultra if specified, but the connections at the valve cover/valley cover (depending on engine) are all 5/16 id. Good contributions!


And for the links that did not work, here is the oil analysis:


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j392/tech17/.highres/Falcon%20long%20term%20testing_zps7l9mvzrs.jpg




And the disparity between can designs:


We are on the right same miles, same vehicle, the other common billet can is on the left.


https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/j392/tech17/.highres/JLT%20LEFT%20RX%20RIGHT_zpsmltwd0tu.jpg



I probably missed a few things, but ask more questions.

[Chutzpah]

Originally Posted by v8

There was someone who posted a while back a dyno of a before and after cleaning and there was a difference, to make the inference there is a parallel correlation between mileage and HP is silly, going by your line of thinking eventually your engine would be in negative HP LOL. Its diminishing returns so while you may loose 25HP at a certain mileage, you might only loose 30HP when that mileage doubles. No one knows as no one has tested like that. But someone did test after they cleaned there valves and got HP back. That we know. I didn't witness it myself, but they posted the dyno graph it before and after.

What I was making “lite of” was a statement regarding the loss of 25HP at such minimal mileage. How could anyone ever possibly know that? We might as well pull out all non scientific stops and extrapolate from there, shouldn’t we?

And I’m well aware of the potential effect(s)of valve deposition, in particular when first generation DI Audi’s needed to be cleaned ~30K miles. I agree that there “may be” a HP drop at some point in todays DI engines ....and that cleaning the valves “may help” But, until someone posts up some loss of performance / independent data, I’ll call out suspect performance commentary.

[v8]

Originally Posted by Chris 2018 ZL1 A10

Hi v8,

I completely agree with your comment regarding available vacuum at WOT in a normally aspirated engine. However, it would be my assertion that in a FI engine at WOT, not only do you NOT have any vacuum but rather a significantly higher manifold pressure, far above ambient (29.92”hg @ sea level) necessitating the need for a check valve to stop back flow. Furthermore, the SC at WOT probably creates vacuum in the intake similarly to what the engine creates in the manifold at idle. This of course, is only a supposition on my part. If what I’m saying is true, then it may not have been necessary for you to bypass the restrictor on your secondary vacuum line, though an excellent technique on a n/a engine. It would be interesting to see what a vacuum gauge placed on the secondary vacuum line at WOT in our LT4 engine has to say about it.

Thank you,
Chris

Hey Chris you are definitely doing some thinking here so you got your thinking cap on. You are 1/2 right in that there is continuous vacuum caused by the supercharger, but that is only under the blower (where the original PCV valve was)

You wrote "Furthermore, the SC at WOT probably creates vacuum in the intake similarly to what the engine creates in the manifold at idle." Not at all, and I'm not sure how to explain this without, but it doesn't.

Once you use the throttle body vacuum, which we are all using, you have to look at the engine like its N/A as you are taking the vacuum from the behind the throttle plate. The vacuum under the booster is no longer available to us as we put a diverter valve in there. You are %100 right with the check valves, and I use them on my set up and you have them on yours. EVERYONE should have them.

Once your engine uses the secondary line, that means the check valve is closed for the primary line, so it does not matter what is going on in the blower (very simply), or anywhere else..... all you have now is suction from the secondary line, ignore EVERYTHING else because your check valve has closed the throttle body off (remember this is your main source of vacuum, its gone now).

So the question becomes, with the secondary line being the only source of vacuum do you
A. Want to have it be restricted?
B. Want more flow?

If you think the secondary line provides enough vacuum then use a restrictor, if you think the secondary line does not provide enough vacuum then don't.

I think I may have to do a video on the LT4 PCV operation LOL Seeing it all on a white board with some good editing may help, heck it may even help me because when I do my videos I have to really think them through and take my time.

[v8]

Originally Posted by Chutzpah

What I was making “lite of” was a statement regarding the loss of 25HP at such minimal mileage. How could anyone ever possibly know that? We might as well pull out all non scientific stops and extrapolate from there, shouldn’t we?

And I’m well aware of the potential effect(s)of valve deposition, in particular when first generation DI Audi’s needed to be cleaned ~30K miles. I agree that there “may be” a HP drop at some point in todays DI engines ....and that cleaning the valves “may help” But, until someone posts up some loss of performance / independent data, I’ll call out suspect performance commentary.

I'm not allowed to post a link to another forum so you have to research yourself. What I found was someone did a dyno run, then cleaned their valves and did again without changing anything else and gained power. It was that simple.

If someone does a dyno run, then does pulley/tune on their car and gains HP its not really independent either, but we believe it.

[ZX-10R]

Originally Posted by v8

Where I installed my restrictor makes a big difference.

1st, at WOT the Elite system (secondary line) has to suck through the whole system (including the restrictor)

In mine, the secondary line bypasses the restrictor so the secondary line has no restrictor (much higher flow) I did this for four reasons

1. I don't believe there is much vacuum there so we need all we can get (no way that secondary line is going to produce about 20"hg of vacuum), I believe that high of vacuum would collapse that rubber elbow going to the throttle body. We are probably getting a few inches at best so we need maximum flow. (less vacuum means we need a wider diameter to flow)

2. At WOT there is more blowby so you need more evacuation

3. Secondary line will pretty much operates only at WOT, or large engine loads, so its barely used.

4. I can adjust flow very easily by drilling out the restrictor a bit if I want. ZX-10R caught onto this.

There is a pressure drop across the restrictor so things are different before and after it.

If we want to get even more technical we have to remember the pressure drop across a restrictive opening is proportional to the length of the restrictive section, and inversely proportional to the diameter of that section. So movement of the restrictor can do a number of things depending on where it is placed. You have to take into all that feet of tubing you are installing under your hood, it will effect flow. (suck though a foot of garden hose and then try again when its 10 feet long - do at your own risk, I do not take responsibility if anyone does this, but you get the idea).

In addition to the above, it's obviously much easier to change restrictors (or even add a small flow throttling valve) on the clean side.

This is also an argument to install the can in front as opposed to routing the hose around the blower (I used about 6 ft). As far as pressure drop, it's obviously flow dependent so I would need to run the numbers for 3/8" hose at 3 cfm