[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Provoste

"19 square 10.5 et22 setup adds rear track width, which made the car more stable when running a 305 square setup. I loved the car on the 305 square setup, more front bite than stock but great rear stability with the wider track. This video was before I ran a square wheel setup. This video is on OEM wheels, with a 295/30 20 RE71R. My tire life on a square setup was at least 2x better than staggered. FYI- I have over 12k track miles on my SS 1LE.

The Pro Racer in the video is Andy Pilgrim, who is a past factory Corvette racer and has been on the podium 5x @ the LeMans 24 hour. He is employed by NCM.

Oh don't get me wrong being only slightly (1 second in a 2:20 min track course) behind a pro driver like him is still an achievement in my opinion, and you're helluva driver IMHO my point was, at this track it felt like you could definitely benefit from a slightly wider rubber in the back since tire screeching sound was very noticeable and you could be slightly faster on the throttle on corner exits at certain points (especially after tight turns) so I believe you were slightly grip limited in the video you sent. I might be wrong of course. BTW, were you able to improve that after switching to ZL1 1LE tires and wheels, what would be your input? The reason I am asking is because I also consider trying 19x12" with 325s in the back I currently have two sets (18x10 and 18x11 with 295-315/30/18 and 19X11" front and rear 305/30/19 SC3Rs)

Speaking of a hot shoe running at the same tracks, you are lucky and I am jealous I wish I had an opportunity to use some reference lap times to compare against mine. So far this is the only reference lap I could use. Randy Pobst was driving my friends' race NC Miata in this video and I was with my ND Miata (similar power/weight ratios ..more important details in video description).

Even though I had tons of track hours in our local tracks, Randy shows his magic how he could carry more speeds at certain corners and how quickly he can adopt a track with only two days of racing. Of course on a low HP car like a Miata, margins are very tight and if he drove my 1LE he would probably be about 2-3 seconds faster than me driving it

Originally Posted by FNxR3DNECK

Unless your goal is literally stuffing as much tire as possible under the car I think the 305 square on 19x10.5" wheels is simply the best setup for an SS 1LE. It completely gets rid of the slight understeer tendency of the stock setup, has better high speed stability thanks to the wider rear track width and the added bonus of being able to rotate front/rear. It's really a no brainer!!!

Like I said in my previous reply, I wouldn't be surprised if G3s in ZL1 1LE sizes (aka 305/325/19") ended up being faster than the 305 square RE71Rs. BUT after putting a bunch of track miles on the exact same setup Provoste used for most of his events last year (305 square RS4s on the 19x10.5" wheels) I can say the I much prefer the way the car drives with that setup!

For the TT guys the RE71Rs make sense, because as of now they are the undisputed "Hero Lap" king and that's what TT is all about. But the 305/325 G3s might give them a good run in the right hands!!!

True. Adding more track in the rear if you are limited to 305s make sense. In my previous 1LE I was also using 325s in the rear that combined with the added track width greatly improved the rear end grip with the result of some unwanted understeer It wasn't an issue on a faster track like Ridge (like NCM in provoste's video). However, on a tight track like ORP, I also managed to be faster on a 305 sq setup than even 305/325 staggered setup because the light/gear advantages overcomed the grip penalty. With the 305/325 19" NT01 setup I still managed to take down my PB about 2.5seconds compared the OEM setup (1:53.0 vs 1:55.6 IIRC ..also some missed 1:52 opportunities here and there, organization at the RMP has been vague and session formats are hard to put some good laps there unfortunately)..

RS4s look like the best value/grip tire out there for those who need a hybrid track/street tire of course. I lost my interest in summer/NT01 category tires years ago since I have been trailering for a while

[Provoste]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Oh don't get me wrong being only slightly (1 second in a 2:20 min track course) behind a pro driver like him is still an achievement in my opinion, and you're helluva driver IMHO my point was, at this track it felt like you could definitely benefit from a slightly wider rubber in the back since tire screeching sound was very noticeable and you could be slightly faster on the throttle on corner exits at certain points (especially after tight turns) so I believe you were slightly grip limited in the video you sent. I might be wrong of course. BTW, were you able to improve that after switching to ZL1 1LE tires and wheels, what would be your input? The reason I am asking is because I also consider trying 19x12" with 325s in the back I currently have two sets (18x10 and 18x11 with 295-315/30/18 and 19X11" front and rear 305/30/19 SC3Rs)

Speaking of a hot shoe running at the same tracks, you are lucky and I am jealous I wish I had an opportunity to use some reference lap times to compare against mine. So far this is the only reference lap I could use. Randy Pobst was driving my friends' race NC Miata in this video and I was with my ND Miata (similar power/weight ratios ..more important details in video description).

Even though I had tons of track hours in our local tracks, Randy shows his magic how he could carry more speeds at certain corners and how quickly he can adopt a track with only two days of racing. Of course on a low HP car like a Miata, margins are very tight and if he drove my 1LE he would probably be about 2-3 seconds faster than me driving it




True. Adding more track in the rear if you are limited to 305s make sense. In my previous 1LE I was also using 325s in the rear that combined with the added track width greatly improved the rear end grip with the result of some unwanted understeer It wasn't an issue on a faster track like Ridge (like NCM in provoste's video). However, on a tight track like ORP, I also managed to be faster on a 305 sq setup than even 305/325 staggered setup because the light/gear advantages overcomed the grip penalty. With the 305/325 19" NT01 setup I still managed to take down my PB about 2.5seconds compared the OEM setup (1:53.0 vs 1:55.6 IIRC ..also some missed 1:52 opportunities here and there, organization at the RMP has been vague and session formats are hard to put some good laps there unfortunately)..

RS4s look like the best value/grip tire out there for those who need a hybrid track/street tire of course. I lost my interest in summer/NT01 category tires years ago since I have been trailering for a while

Yep, I loved the way the car felt with ZLE spec wheels and tires... I had chosen the "19 square setup not because I believed it was the max attack fastest, but because I wanted to extend tire life on track, while maintaining a very neutral and stable car. I do 30-40 days per year on track, so if I can get double the life out of a $1,300-$1,400 set of tires, that is a huge advantage.

Side note, new PB today @ NCM on OEM wheels and tires. Car was HOOKED UP today.

[TrackClub]

First of all: Provoste, what an amazing accomplishment!
Truly tremendeous! Congrats!!!

Secondly, the more i read such threads, including "scientific armchair musings" at times, the more i feel vindicated for deeply believing that a driver skill counts the most. And that laptimes simply don't lie.

Of course, give the same skilled driver stickier tires and their pace will improve. Zero questions. But, that's not an automatic quarantee that applies just to any driver.

Also, i agree that G3 is one tremendous tire, capable of tremendous pace in the right hands. No surprise this coming from me (again) anyway

And again, Fastest laps thread proves this very point, with G3 achieving superb laptimes, be it on stock, or modded cars. It most definitely is not a limiting factor regarding fast laps when compared to other "streets" for damn sure. Heck, some drivers on G3s surpass those on truly uber rubber!

It is hard to know just how fast one is, without some direct apples to apples comparisons. And ditto goes for tire choices. Well, the Fastest Laps thread is an excellent source for all of us. But if somebody runs on tracks which are not very popular (or N of the border like myself), look up your class at a local Time Trials club and see how the laptimes compare. In early years of this hobby, i joined TT competition and i was in complete shock how much delta i had to make up. There is no better motivator to improve one's skills than formal TT competition, because you can't just run what ya brung.
(Unless one runs it in unlimited class and likes getting completely embarrassed Anyway, enough said and my congrats again!

PS Our human world is being invaded by an extremely formidable foe. Let's keep our eyes up, be smart and take care of each other. This will be a long and a very difficult battle on many fronts...Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by Provoste

Yep, I loved the way the car felt with ZLE spec wheels and tires... I had chosen the "19 square setup not because I believed it was the max attack fastest, but because I wanted to extend tire life on track, while maintaining a very neutral and stable car. I do 30-40 days per year on track, so if I can get double the life out of a $1,300-$1,400 set of tires, that is a huge advantage.

Side note, new PB today @ NCM on OEM wheels and tires. Car was HOOKED UP today.

That's terrific man, congrats on the new PB It's always nice to see when we're able to shave some times otherwise it gets boring pretty quickly

Like you said in the video description it looks like a very fast day for ultimate PB (less traffic and mid 40s), I love days like that too because on days like that it doesn't really matter much whether you have OEM tires, or tires like NT01s when it gets hot however they overheat, feels very greasy quickly and that's when the more aggressive tires become faster because of that. R7s (or equivalent) don't get really affected by the track temps as much as other tires like 200tw or 100tw (NT01, R888Rs), overall lap times still change even when temps change about 10-15 degrees.

I hear you on the cost savings, R7, SC3R, Trofeo R type of tires would never be good in that department. It's crazy that my buddy with his Z06 cords the front tires (R7s) in only one day (1.5 day maybe), they're like $500 a piece, crazy :/

Speaking of tire longevity what goes first in your experience? They HC out first or you cord them on the outer shoulders? ( I assume it's the case since you want to be able to swap wheels front and rear) If that's the case, have you ever considered adding a bit more roll resistance to extend tire life ..like ARBs? Just an idea..

And lastly, have you ever considered running NT01s in 18" square sizes (say 315/30/18 on 18x10.5" sq wheel setup) I am almost sure it will be the most cost effective route while being maybe slightly faster than the OEM ones (I doubt they would be much faster than OEMs but for $300 a piece and if it lasts longer?). I cannot think of any track tire that can outlast the NT01s especially when track day temps go up and chew up those 200tw much faster than 100tw tires that designed for track longevity. I haven't tried personally but I am planning to use Nankang AR-1s because I heard nothing but good things about them from people who tried them and they're also $300 a piece for 305/30/19 sizes IIRC

Originally Posted by TrackClub

First of all: Provoste, what an amazing accomplishment!
Truly tremendeous! Congrats!!!

Secondly, the more i read such threads, including "scientific armchair musings" at times, the more i feel vindicated for deeply believing that a driver skill counts the most. And that laptimes simply don't lie.

Of course, give the same skilled driver stickier tires and their pace will improve. Zero questions. But, that's not an automatic quarantee that applies just to any driver.

Also, i agree that G3 is one tremendous tire, capable of tremendous pace in the right hands. No surprise this coming from me (again) anyway

And again, Fastest laps thread proves this very point, with G3 achieving superb laptimes, be it on stock, or modded cars. It most definitely is not a limiting factor regarding fast laps when compared to other "streets" for damn sure. Heck, some drivers on G3s surpass those on truly uber rubber!

It is hard to know just how fast one is, without some direct apples to apples comparisons. And ditto goes for tire choices. Well, the Fastest Laps thread is an excellent source for all of us. But if somebody runs on tracks which are not very popular (or N of the border like myself), look up your class at a local Time Trials club and see how the laptimes compare. In early years of this hobby, i joined TT competition and i was in complete shock how much delta i had to make up. There is no better motivator to improve one's skills than formal TT competition, because you can't just run what ya brung.
(Unless one runs it in unlimited class and likes getting completely embarrassed Anyway, enough said and my congrats again!

PS Our human world is being invaded by an extremely formidable foe. Let's keep our eyes up, be smart and take care of each other. This will be a long and a very difficult battle on many fronts...Cheers!

I agree with you people go to markets get cleaning supplies, TPs( no idea about the use case of stocking/piling them anyways).. and here us track junkies talk about tires and stock tires (cough) instead.. sometimes I feel very irresponsible of doing that but here in PNW we all wait for this moment. I hope there's no interruptions on the upcoming events :/

Speaking of tires, I partially agree with you. I am with you on OEM tires being tremendous value and amazing performance also very convenient since car is tuned to work with them (or equivalent tires) so people (especially novice drivers) don't have to change anything, just one set for everything..our cars as well as the ZL1/ZLEs are definitely track ready out of the box.

For experienced driver like Provoste, however, I am not sure if it would be cost effective to run OEM tires ..specifically on a hot day.. he would most likely destroy them quicker than those say NT01, Nankang, R888R tires as they are not designed for extended track use (mild track use, more like city/track combined use). Two things that affect the tire life the most IMO are : driver pace and track temps (assuming he doesn't keep destroying them on the shoulder because the lack of the roll resistance)

That said you always watch and use the fast drivers as a reference I am not surprised he and other fast drivers would give others with expensive cars and ubber tires a run for money

Peace

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

That's terrific man, congrats on the new PB It's always nice to see when we're able to shave some times otherwise it gets boring pretty quickly

Like you said in the video description it looks like a very fast day for ultimate PB (less traffic and mid 40s), I love days like that too because on days like that it doesn't really matter much whether you have OEM tires, or tires like NT01s when it gets hot however they overheat, feels very greasy quickly and that's when the more aggressive tires become faster because of that. R7s (or equivalent) don't get really affected by the track temps as much as other tires like 200tw or 100tw (NT01, R888Rs), overall lap times still change even when temps change about 10-15 degrees.

I hear you on the cost savings, R7, SC3R, Trofeo R type of tires would never be good in that department. It's crazy that my buddy with his Z06 cords the front tires (R7s) in only one day (1.5 day maybe), they're like $500 a piece, crazy :/

Speaking of tire longevity what goes first in your experience? They HC out first or you cord them on the outer shoulders? ( I assume it's the case since you want to be able to swap wheels front and rear) If that's the case, have you ever considered adding a bit more roll resistance to extend tire life ..like ARBs? Just an idea..

And lastly, have you ever considered running NT01s in 18" square sizes (say 315/30/18 on 18x10.5" sq wheel setup) I am almost sure it will be the most cost effective route while being maybe slightly faster than the OEM ones (I doubt they would be much faster than OEMs but for $300 a piece and if it lasts longer?). I cannot think of any track tire that can outlast the NT01s especially when track day temps go up and chew up those 200tw much faster than 100tw tires that designed for track longevity. I haven't tried personally but I am planning to use Nankang AR-1s because I heard nothing but good things about them from people who tried them and they're also $300 a piece for 305/30/19 sizes IIRC






I agree with you people go to markets get cleaning supplies, TPs( no idea about the use case of stocking/piling them anyways).. and here us track junkies talk about tires and stock tires (cough) instead.. sometimes I feel very irresponsible of doing that but here in PNW we all wait for this moment. I hope there's no interruptions on the upcoming events :/

Speaking of tires, I partially agree with you. I am with you on OEM tires being tremendous value and amazing performance also very convenient since car is tuned to work with them (or equivalent tires) so people (especially novice drivers) don't have to change anything, just one set for everything..our cars as well as the ZL1/ZLEs are definitely track ready out of the box.

For experienced driver like Provoste, however, I am not sure if it would be cost effective to run OEM tires ..specifically on a hot day.. he would most likely destroy them quicker than those say NT01, Nankang, R888R tires as they are not designed for extended track use (mild track use, more like city/track combined use). Two things that affect the tire life the most IMO are : driver pace and track temps (assuming he doesn't keep destroying them on the shoulder because the lack of the roll resistance)

That said you always watch and use the fast drivers as a reference I am not surprised he and other fast drivers would give others with expensive cars and ubber tires a run for money

Peace

Peace back

But i must completely disagree with ya: G3s are neither a tire designed to put put around town, nor are they novice, mild track use design. Far from it and their laptimes prove this over and over again. They are on par (without splitting hairs) with pretty much any other ultra street tire developed for dual use, but clearly track duty being prime design factor. If i had second set of rims id never run G3s for DD only application. EVER!

Id also disagree that it does not matter what tires youre on if the temps are cool. That's an overly broad statememt that doesn't quite make sense to me.
Both a slower and a faster tire will deliver better laptimes in cooler weather. But the delta will always be there.

Also note, nobody (with properly maxed F camber, sways or no sways) ever cords them on the outside. They cord on the inside. Ive posted my pix, RealJA posted his pix, etc. Clearly both of us push hard as well. So that's how they wear. If somebody wears out outside shoulders they need to check their alignment specs asap. Or perhaps learn how not to induce massive understeer on corner entry.

Note that my PBs (you'll have to trust me they are pretty good - except for one) were rarily done in a TT like enviornment, but rather unpredictable traffic, whatever weather on that day and whenever i could find empty track in front of me, sometimes at the tail end of a 30min session. That's a testament of how durable these tires are re not cycling out quickly. As a matter of fact they hook up until they cord.

I will leave it to Provoste, but i suspect he will say that no tire wears as much as an iron as RS4s.

PS Re Covid19: i agree. I also think we have seen nothing yet. If (or rather when) the govs impose strict rules against group events, we may kiss this season goodbye. Get as much as you can now! Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Peace back

But i must completely disagree with ya: G3s are neither a tire designed to put put around town, nor are they novice, mild track use design. Far from it and their laptimes prove this over and over again. They are on par (without splitting hairs) with pretty much any other ultra street tire developed for dual use, but clearly track duty being prime design factor. If i had second set of rims id never run G3s for DD only application. EVER!

Id also disagree that it does not matter what tires youre on if the temps are cool. That's an overly broad statememt that doesn't quite make sense to me.
Both a slower and a faster tire will deliver better laptimes in cooler weather. But the delta will always be there.

Also note, nobody (with properly maxed F camber, sways or no sways) ever cords them on the outside. They cord on the inside. Ive posted my pix, RealJA posted his pix, etc. Clearly both of us push hard as well. So that's how they wear. If somebody wears out outside shoulders they need to check their alignment specs asap. Or perhaps learn how not to induce massive understeer on corner entry.

Note that my PBs (you'll have to trust me they are pretty good - except for one) were rarily done in a TT like enviornment, but rather unpredictable traffic, whatever weather on that day and whenever i could find empty track in front of me, sometimes at the tail end of a 30min session. That's a testament of how durable these tires are re not cycling out quickly. As a matter of fact they hook up until they cord.

I will leave it to Provoste, but i suspect he will say that no tire wears as much as an iron as RS4s.

PS Re Covid19: i agree. I also think we have seen nothing yet. If (or rather when) the govs impose strict rules against group events, we may kiss this season goodbye. Get as much as you can now! Cheers!

I was merely talking about the cost effectiveness not the convenience of being able to use one set so there's that. I know the fact RS4s are the tire of choice for longevity (especially on endurance races and almost all the racers I know use them because of that) but it's because they're more durable while being slightly slower than RE71Rs, it's more like a strategic decision which doesn't apply to 30 min session format. If it was faster it would mean the tire compound would be softer and ultimately wouldn't last longer. There's no voodoo magic there. It's just physics.

I agree with you on OEM tires are not being the ideal street tire and I would also pick something else for "street only" like an all season tire. However, they're not the fastest tire either, in my experience 305/325 NT01s were still more than 2 seconds faster and I can guarantee you the OEMs wouldn't last as much as them for two reasons, they're more heat resistant and thanks to added rubber they can handle much more weight and heat. After about 4-5 track days I didn't see any abnormal wear on both inside and outside edges. As you may already know, the excessive inner wear is the indicator of excessive negative camber or toe went out of specs maybe?

Id also disagree that it does not matter what tires youre on if the temps are cool. That's an overly broad statememt that doesn't quite make sense to me.
Both a slower and a faster tire will deliver better laptimes in cooler weather. But the delta will always be there.

I should've been more clear on this I think , on colder days tires the delta between real R comps and say NT01s is smaller ..the gap gets bigger and bigger when the track temp rises especially above 80F. If that wasn't the case for you I am jealous of the climate that you attend track days because here in PNW it's very noticeable between morning and afternoon sessions since track temps are fluctuating greatly (like mid 50s in the morning and above 75-80 degrees in the afternoon)

For street use, some people who have high HP in our area prefer R888R or equivalent tires instead of PS4S not because R888Rs are better for rain or standing water (obviously they're not lol) but because R888Rs warm up even faster than those PSS tires and give enough grip to tame 650hp on the street. So on a colder day I would much rather have a R888R, RR or OEM tires than say Cup2, Trofeo Rs..or more aggressive tire, I hope it makes more sense now

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

I was merely talking about the cost effectiveness not the convenience of being able to use one set so there's that. I know the fact RS4s are the tire of choice for longevity (especially on endurance races and almost all the racers I know use them because of that) but it's because they're more durable while being slightly slower than RE71Rs, it's more like a strategic decision which doesn't apply to 30 min session format. If it was faster it would mean the tire compound would be softer and ultimately wouldn't last longer. There's no voodoo magic there. It's just physics.

I agree with you on OEM tires are not being the ideal street tire and I would also pick something else for "street only" like an all season tire. However, they're not the fastest tire either, in my experience 305/325 NT01s were still more than 2 seconds faster and I can guarantee you the OEMs wouldn't last as much as them for two reasons, they're more heat resistant and thanks to added rubber they can handle much more weight and heat. After about 4-5 track days I didn't see any abnormal wear on both inside and outside edges. As you may already know, the excessive inner wear is the indicator of excessive negative camber or toe went out of specs maybe?



I should've been more clear on this I think , on colder days tires the delta between real R comps and say NT01s is smaller ..the gap gets bigger and bigger when the track temp rises especially above 80F. If that wasn't the case for you I am jealous of the climate that you attend track days because here in PNW it's very noticeable between morning and afternoon sessions since track temps are fluctuating greatly (like mid 50s in the morning and above 75-80 degrees in the afternoon)

For street use, some people who have high HP in our area prefer R888R or equivalent tires instead of PS4S not because R888Rs are better for rain or standing water (obviously they're not lol) but because R888Rs warm up even faster than those PSS tires and give enough grip to tame 650hp on the street. So on a colder day I would much rather have a R888R, RR or OEM tires than say Cup2, Trofeo Rs..or more aggressive tire, I hope it makes more sense now

Agree that NT01 wears longer than G3. Used them for years and they were very durable. A lot less suitable for a dual duty tho, especially in the wet. A different category tire imo.

Comparing pace of NT 305/325 on 19s vs G3 285/305 on 20s is a bit of apples and oranges as you very well know In terms of pace difference between various tires, i really think it is a lot up to the driver et al.
And that's why the pace that some drivers can achieve on G3s, requires some drivers to upgrade to R7s or other dot slicks. Or bring 200hp extra

G3s do not fall off 2 seconds per lap after 2 or 3 laps. Not even close. Ive used them tons for 3 seasons and they remain very consistent indeed. Will they be fastest on the last lap? No tire is, obviously. But some fall of more and some much less. 2 secs per lap is HUGE and G3s are not in this category. As a matter of fact i dont think i have ever experienced such severe fall on any tire, unless i were to severely overdrive the car. I am also not so sure many of us here can push at 10/10ths consistently lap after lap for a whole session. So there is that to consider as well.

Anyway, bottom line, it is good that we have choices to suit our individual preferences and needs. And bottom line for me as how fast a tire will go is posted laptimes. Everything else is secondary imo. Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Agree that NT01 wears longer than G3. Used them for years and they were very durable. A lot less suitable for a dual duty tho, especially in the wet. A different category tire imo.



Comparing pace of NT 305/325 on 19s vs G3 285/305 on 20s is a bit of apples and oranges as you very well know In terms of pace difference between various tires, i really think it is a lot up to the driver et al.
And that's why the pace that some drivers can achieve on G3s, requires some drivers to upgrade to R7s or other dot slicks. Or bring 200hp extra

G3s do not fall off 2 seconds per lap after 2 or 3 laps. Not even close. Ive used them tons for 3 seasons and they remain very consistent indeed. Will they be fastest on the last lap? No tire is, obviously. But some fall of more and some much less. 2 secs per lap is HUGE and G3s are not in this category. As a matter of fact i dont think i have ever experienced such severe fall on any tire, unless i were to severely overdrive the car. I am also not so sure many of us here can push at 10/10ths consistently lap after lap for a whole session. So there is that to consider as well.

Anyway, bottom line, it is good that we have choices to suit our individual preferences and needs. And bottom line for me as how fast a tire will go is posted laptimes. Everything else is secondary imo. Cheers!

Oh they're (NT01s) awful for rain and standing water conditions and very noisy too I was giving that as an example since most of us have dedicated set (in either 19" or 18") R888Rs are not that bad though, they're very close in terms of performance and longevity from what I can tell but many people still prefer NT01s, probably because it doesn't have as many tread pattern like R888Rs or others. There's now new contender btw, Nankang AR1, they're proven to be the fastest in that category, people seem to be happy with life and they cost about the same.

I agree with you on some people use the better tires and especially HP as a crutch and OEMs are just fine for many people ...definitely for novices. That said, comparing a fast driver with slower tires to slower driver with faster cars/tires also apples to oranges..needles to say driver factor is the most important and I have no objection to that. I was just trying to stay on different tires topic. I think it'd be silly to someone to claim she/he could drive at 10/10ths, that would be a very bold statement. I personally would be happy if I believe I can drive say 8.5/10

Speaking of performance degradation, check out Provoste's comment on the "best lap times thread" He also believes a couple seconds of difference is not unusual. (might be even worse on a hot day actually since coolant temps also rise and definitely hurt the performance to a degree but that's another topic)
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=755

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Oh they're (NT01s) awful for rain and standing water conditions and very noisy too I was giving that as an example since most of us have dedicated set (in either 19" or 18") R888Rs are not that bad though, they're very close in terms of performance and longevity from what I can tell but many people still prefer NT01s, probably because it doesn't have as many tread pattern like R888Rs or others. There's now new contender btw, Nankang AR1, they're proven to be the fastest in that category, people seem to be happy with life and they cost about the same.

I agree with you on some people use the better tires and especially HP as a crutch and OEMs are just fine for many people ...definitely for novices. That said, comparing a fast driver with slower tires to slower driver with faster cars/tires also apples to oranges..needles to say driver factor is the most important and I have no objection to that. I was just trying to stay on different tires topic. I think it'd be silly to someone to claim she/he could drive at 10/10ths, that would be a very bold statement. I personally would be happy if I believe I can drive say 8.5/10

Speaking of performance degradation, check out Provoste's comment on the "best lap times thread" He also believes a couple seconds of difference is not unusual. (might be even worse on a hot day actually since coolant temps also rise and definitely hurt the performance to a degree but that's another topic)
https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showp...&postcount=755

Yeah, note he actually mentioned 1-2 seconds....on a 2:15 lap! My comment was generic, as in applying to "average" track lap, where 2 secs would be super slow.

Not sure why you are continuing to somehow equate G3s to novice drivers, while some very experienced and very fast ones love them *and* post lap times which embarrass some dot slicks. But be it as it may

There are some folks here that can drive 10/10ths imo. Albeit such discussion can become rather subjective very quickly. Let's just say this: anyone that can post a super fast lap on G3 (or other streets for that matter) that matches (or beats) other fast laps on dot slicks, or modded cars, is likely driving at 10/10ths or damn close to it. Not to mention anyone that comes close to, or beats a pro

Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Yeah, note he actually mentioned 1-2 seconds....on a 2:15 lap! My comment was generic, as in applying to "average" track lap, where 2 secs would be super slow.

Not sure why you are continuing to somehow equate G3s to novice drivers, while some very experienced and very fast ones love them *and* post lap times which embarrass some dot slicks. But be it as it may

There are some folks here that can drive 10/10ths imo. Albeit such discussion can become rather subjective very quickly. Let's just say this: anyone that can post a super fast lap on G3 (or other streets for that matter) that matches (or beats) other fast laps on dot slicks, or modded cars, is likely driving at 10/10ths or damn close to it. Not to mention anyone that comes close to, or beats a pro
Cheers!

You repeatedly giving this example but let's also say this, for the sake of a good A:B tire comparison we have to talk about the same driver since it's the most important factor in the equation . Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about the tires but instead the driver ability. There are faster guys on 30 years old Miatas than brand new Mustangs, Camaros ..etc but what would tell us anything about the tires?

I am not equating the OEM tires to novice drivers, I said "it's fine for many people ..definitely for novices" . As you pointed out before, I think it's a better way to study the car for a novice without being overwhelmed with the extra grip or use them as a band aid solution. For an experienced driver, however, street tires become a bottleneck and costly ..as there are many other tire options out there that even last more, faster and cost about the same or less.. this not a conspiracy btw it's a quantifiable fact.

With all due respect, I don't believe the term "10/10ths" and try not to use it ..because to me, it implies there's no room for improvement since all is already perfect .. in my opinion, skill development is a never ending task and even the pro racers admit that they always work on to find a better setup and finding a better line here and there, brake a little later, try to carry a bit more momentum.. list goes on. It was also mentioned in one of the videos on the website that you shared, "safeisfast" I believe.. thanks again for the link btw

provoste also mentioned that his previous best with RE-71Rs were in 2:16s and added it's about 1 second faster than the OEMs (which makes it 2:17s something) on the very same track, that alone is a good indicator of even an experienced driver can shave off a whooping 3 seconds with same OEM tires ..what's changed? well you tell me, maybe he studied the track better and/or as he mentioned, it was a fast day (mid 40s) ..most likely combination of those two factors .. However, 1-2 seconds of gap on the same session is still huge IMO, you didn't believe me when I first told you but it's good to know we're on the same page now . I mean, I would understand if it was on different sessions since we've seen 2-3 seconds of variance due to ambient temps between morning and afternoon session (even on a shorter/tighter track) but on the same session? that's HUGE! the optimal window is also very limited, 1 or 2 hot laps (typically one hot lap) ...so going back to skill development, it may not be helpful for many intermediate drivers too, since they won't be able to tell if it's the tires or themselves being slow or at "fault". They will be fighting with tire pressures (especially on a warm day) since the lap times are not that consistent throughout the session. It will be very hard to analyze data because of this very fact.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

You repeatedly giving this example but let's also say this, for the sake of a good A:B tire comparison we have to talk about the same driver since it's the most important factor in the equation . Otherwise, we wouldn't be talking about the tires but instead the driver ability. There are faster guys on 30 years old Miatas than brand new Mustangs, Camaros ..etc but what would tell us anything about the tires?

I am not equating the OEM tires to novice drivers, I said "it's fine for many people ..definitely for novices" . As you pointed out before, I think it's a better way to study the car for a novice without being overwhelmed with the extra grip or use them as a band aid solution. For an experienced driver, however, street tires become a bottleneck and costly ..as there are many other tire options out there that even last more, faster and cost about the same or less.. this not a conspiracy btw it's a quantifiable fact.

With all due respect, I don't believe the term "10/10ths" and try not to use it ..because to me, it implies there's no room for improvement since all is already perfect .. in my opinion, skill development is a never ending task and even the pro racers admit that they always work on to find a better setup and finding a better line here and there, brake a little later, try to carry a bit more momentum.. list goes on. It was also mentioned in one of the videos on the website that you shared, "safeisfast" I believe.. thanks again for the link btw

provoste also mentioned that his previous best with RE-71Rs were in 2:16s and added it's about 1 second faster than the OEMs (which makes it 2:17s something) on the very same track, that alone is a good indicator of even an experienced driver can shave off a whooping 3 seconds with same OEM tires ..what's changed? well you tell me, maybe he studied the track better and/or as he mentioned, it was a fast day (mid 40s) ..most likely combination of those two factors .. However, 1-2 seconds of gap on the same session is still huge IMO, you didn't believe me when I first told you but it's good to know we're on the same page now . I mean, I would understand if it was on different sessions since we've seen 2-3 seconds of variance due to ambient temps between morning and afternoon session (even on a shorter/tighter track) but on the same session? that's HUGE! the optimal window is also very limited, 1 or 2 hot laps (typically one hot lap) ...so going back to skill development, it may not be helpful for many intermediate drivers too, since they won't be able to tell if it's the tires or themselves being slow or at "fault". They will be fighting with tire pressures (especially on a warm day) since the lap times are not that consistent throughout the session. It will be very hard to analyze data because of this very fact.

Hey Cem, i agree with ya on balance. Too many factors here to keep splitting hairs anyway. I must admit i am a simple guy and actual laptimes and driver comments who achieved them influence me the most. This of course includes my own first hand experience over 3 full seasons, at 7 different venues, on 3 different tires, against countless variety of cars/tires. Not once did i feel the G3s held me back. But of course a dot slick type tire would make me faster. But also at a price to my budget.

Different drivers, different venues, different days all show what G3s are capable of and they've been duly recorded in the sticky. This of course includes recent NCM and VIR achievements by Provoste, who has just recently "re-discovered" them. I dont know about you, but i have only seen very fast laps and verbal praise coming from him and i am pretty sure he ain't sponsored by GoodYear

Anyhow, hope you'll get to run those RRs as i am very interested to see how they hold up and what your comments will be. Still sitting on the fence re extra rim set. Seems either G3R or RR would be the tire of choice for them. For special occasions only

All the best!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Hey Cem, i agree with ya on balance. Too many factors here to keep splitting hairs anyway. I must admit i am a simple guy and actual laptimes and driver comments who achieved them influence me the most. This of course includes my own first hand experience over 3 full seasons, at 7 different venues, on 3 different tires, against countless variety of cars/tires. Not once did i feel the G3s held me back. But of course a dot slick type tire would make me faster. But also at a price to my budget.

Different drivers, different venues, different days all show what G3s are capable of and they've been duly recorded in the sticky. This of course includes recent NCM and VIR achievements by Provoste, who has just recently "re-discovered" them. I dont know about you, but i have only seen very fast laps and verbal praise coming from him and i am pretty sure he ain't sponsored by GoodYear

Anyhow, hope you'll get to run those RRs as i am very interested to see how they hold up and what your comments will be. Still sitting on the fence re extra rim set. Seems either G3R or RR would be the tire of choice for them. For special occasions only

All the best!

Thanks.. and I agree there's nothing "wrong" with them they're the best OEM tires I've owned for sure

I am driving to the ORP tomorrow and will be testing them both. Here's hoping all goes well and I don't have any issues (swaybars, fitment ..etc). Since I figured I won't be using the OEM wheels/tires much, I sold them to a forum member. I cannot believe how quickly I could sell these (this one and the previous set on the old car), they sell like hot cakes

Since my garage is not that big, I really won't need the OEMs as third set (not to mention the spare RR sets). There tires and wheels are huger, they take up a lot of space unlike my Miata haha. At some point, I might get some 19x12" for the rears (for the 19" set) and/or 18x10.5" for the front (for the 18" set) instead so that I can bump up the tire/wheel sizes

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by glamcem

Thanks.. and I agree there's nothing "wrong" with them they're the best OEM tires I've owned for sure

I am driving to the ORP tomorrow and will be testing them both. Here's hoping all goes well and I don't have any issues (swaybars, fitment ..etc). Since I figured I won't be using the OEM wheels/tires much, I sold them to a forum member. I cannot believe how quickly I could sell these (this one and the previous set on the old car), they sell like hot cakes

Since my garage is not that big, I really won't need the OEMs as third set (not to mention the spare RR sets). There tires and wheels are huger, they take up a lot of space unlike my Miata haha. At some point, I might get some 19x12" for the rears (for the 19" set) and/or 18x10.5" for the front (for the 18" set) instead so that I can bump up the tire/wheel sizes

Sounds good Cem and let us know how the tests go.
A bit surprised your venue has stayed opened given what's been going on Covid19 wise. Hope you're taking all the necessary precautions! Best of luck, stay safe and keep us updated. Cheers!

[glamcem]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Sounds good Cem and let us know how the tests go.
A bit surprised your venue has stayed opened given what's been going on Covid19 wise. Hope you're taking all the necessary precautions! Best of luck, stay safe and keep us updated. Cheers!

Thanks, I sure will. Speaking of the events, all the organization events are cancelled at this point but this is a club event with about 8-9 attendees so they didn't cancel it. Lunch won't be served and they'll probably do the driver's meeting outside by by sticking to "social distancing" rules