[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

But reducing the accidents is the goal with the least amount of intrusive "control". Would you rather a car that can not exceed speed limits?

I'd plainly rather the car leave the driving specifically to me. If I wanted to let someone or something else drive me, I'd take a bus, train or taxi.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Say for example your car hits the brakes and you are on ice (one example above). That's what ABS is for.

ABS is not meant or designed in any way or circumstance to stop you while you're on ice... thats what your TIRES are for. The only thing ABS does is prevent the rotor discs from locking up (which would seize the wheels in place causing the vehicle to slide).. If you have no traction, it doesn't matter how good your brakes are ABS or not, you're not stopping.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Say for example you have a false alarm and the car brakes and there is someone behind you. If that results in an accident then the person behind you either wasn't paying attention or did not have any FCA/AFB. In either case that car also having this feature would help.

Great on paper but if that person behind you is an 18 Wheeler truck and you suddenly stop on him those tables can actually reverse against your favor pretty quickly if said truck has a dash camera... also... it really wouldn't matter because if its a vehicle large enough to do serious damage to you or your occupants what good will it be to point fingers when everyone rides out of it an ambulance? I'm not looking to win a court case, I'm looking to preserve my health and my car.

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry to say guys, but the electronics and software are faster than we will ever be. We may want to believe it's all skill related, but for most of us on this site that don't race for our living, the computer is faster. And with the advent of Level 4 autonomy coming, Lidar will make the cars even that much better.

There's a big difference between being faster, and actually making the wise decision... You can be as fast as you want but it does no good if you rush to the wrong solution. A well trained drivers goal is to always be prepared and ready to make the right decision.

============

Lastly, I've said it before and I'll say it again... There is NOT nor will there NEVER EVER be a replacement for a fully attent driver.

[90503]

Yes, the video is correct that a driver may think these systems do more than what they are capable of or designed to do. There are parameters that need to be met, and only under certain conditions will the brakes be applied or the vehicle brought to a complete halt. That can happen, but is not an all the time, automatic function of the braking....
The owner's manual (which nobody ever reads) always warns you must pay attention, even with these assist systems working as they should. They are not a substitute that actually operates the car for you.

[torqueaddict]

Why fight it? It's going to happen whether we like it or not. We're on our way to completely autonomous automobiles. Just enjoy what you have while it lasts.

I'm glad I was still able to pick up an M6 as those will be gone soon in favor of the slushbox.

I don't care for emergency braking because it's not ready for prime time. With that said, I have no problem with the other guy having it because distracted drivers are a plague.

I got rear ended once in my previous car and it wasn't fun. Guy wasn't paying attention and slammed his Mercedes minivan right into the back of my hatchback at around 50 mph.

[90503]

Originally Posted by wjmeyer

Chevy has AEB on the 2017 Malibu, so they must have it developed well enough to offer as an option and probably will be on the rest of their vehicles by 2020. It's called Forward Automatic Braking. From reading the Malibu manual, it can be turned off (recommended when towing) and act as an alert only.

FAB is on page 234....Other assist features are in the same area...

https://my.chevrolet.com/content/dam...la1stPrint.pdf

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

I'd plainly rather the car leave the driving specifically to me. If I wanted to let someone or something else drive me, I'd take a bus, train or taxi.

Cute, but as a human you make a terrible machine, and in that line of thought, you will miss things and you will make errors. This is fact.

Great on paper but if that person behind you is an 18 Wheeler truck and you suddenly stop on him those tables can actually reverse against your favor pretty quickly if said truck has a dash camera... also... it really wouldn't matter because if its a vehicle large enough to do serious damage to you or your occupants what good will it be to point fingers when everyone rides out of it an ambulance? I'm not looking to win a court case, I'm looking to preserve my health and my car.

I'm not sure why you keep going back to this. So basically you should never stop if there's someone behind you that can't? This really makes no sense. Sure, there might be a vehicle following too close, but a vehicle slowing down will dissipate a lot of energy and will not transfer as much forward, vs. just hitting something because you didn't slow down. There's also the mass issue, you vs. a pedestrian or cyclist is going to be very one-sided unless you slow down/stop, a truck behind you that starts slowing down before it hits you won't be nearly as bad and most likely everyone will walk away. If said truck has a dash camera, it will be obvious they were following too close to stop.

There's a big difference between being faster, and actually making the wise decision... You can be as fast as you want but it does no good if you rush to the wrong solution. A well trained drivers goal is to always be prepared and ready to make the right decision.

And what is the "right" decision? You are fooling yourself if you think you can determine that in the finite time given during one of these situations and "always be prepared to make the right decision". Should you swerve left or right, should you lock up or gas it? Really easy to armchair-quarter back, but to actually analyze and determine, in the time given, you are being completely ridiculous here. Part of my job is investigating accidents. My schooling was centered on ergonomics and human factors. Your statement here is simply wrong.

Lastly, I've said it before and I'll say it again... There is NOT nor will there NEVER EVER be a replacement for a fully attent driver.

It's obvious that you are posting about what you emotionally feel. I have done the signal detection theory math and tests. I have been through the threshold tables and other ergonomic data. Here's the kicker:

There is no such thing as a "fully attentive driver". It doesn't exist. It's like a "law abiding citizen" or "true Scotsman". We make these things up in our mind that defy evidence and/or normal human behavior, but that's the only place they exist, in our mind.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Glen e

Exactly.....the chest beaters/real men had the same lame argument about not wanting ABS when it came out

Just so you know, there are a few situations where even ABS - arguably the most mature of all nannies - either gets it wrong, or perhaps for some other reason don't function quite as intended (and works no better than non-ABS brakes). And I'm not even talking about things like wheel sensor failure.

It's not chest beating when you've had the experiences . . .


Norm

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Cute, but as a human you make a terrible machine, and in that line of thought, you will miss things and you will make errors. This is fact.

And as a HUMAN who also just so happens to be CCNA & RHCE certified have done both Network Engineering and devops work in his career whom also knows C++ and Python and works with computers, network equipment (Cisco, HP Procurve, Juniper, Fortinet, and have processed enough RMA's on defective equipment right out the box to make to make the national deficit look like a gumball nickle, I know only an idiot would put all of his trust in a machine. Computers are not flexible, they can only do EXACTLY what they're programmed to do, if its not precisely programmed or within a specific calculated range of events of which are all pre-determined variables that another HUMAN programmed, the COMPUTER does not act upon it.

And anyone who believes that a computer cannot make an error is largely uniformed. If they couldn't screw up I wouldn't have a job.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

I'm not sure why you keep going back to this. So basically you should never stop if there's someone behind you that can't? This really makes no sense. Sure, there might be a vehicle following too close, but a vehicle slowing down will dissipate a lot of energy and will not transfer as much forward, vs. just hitting something because you didn't slow down. There's also the mass issue, you vs. a pedestrian or cyclist is going to be very one-sided unless you slow down/stop, a truck behind you that starts slowing down before it hits you won't be nearly as bad and most likely everyone will walk away. If said truck has a dash camera, it will be obvious they were following too close to stop.

No, I'm saying that you should always pay attention to your surroundings. Sudden stops are always last resort. Nine times of ten you can avoid that by going around the target. I have been driving since 2001 and I have NEVER had to emergency brake on the Interstate due to an idiot who either has an accident or panics. I keep my sides clears and merge to another lane and proceed on. Braking hard like that at speed is practically asking to be rear ended.

If any vehicle comes to a sudden stop infront of a truck and there is no reason especially for the vehicle to top, the vehicle strucken is at fault. Several cases like this have been won by truck drivers who have sufficient evidence that the vehicle stopped too quickly for a tractor trailer to stop. Trucks need alot more room to brake than cars do and it is explicitly taught not to brake hard infront of them, its just as similar as driving across a railroad track and expecting a freight train to stop for you. Even if a truck isn't tailgating you, it doesn't mean he can stop in time to avoid a collision, they weigh over 35,000 lbs fully loaded.

You keep pointing fingers at the guy behind you, but you fail to realize if that HITS you, more than likely you're not going to walk away to your attorney to file a case against the truck company, you're going to a casket.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

And what is the "right" decision? You are fooling yourself if you think you can determine that in the finite time given during one of these situations and "always be prepared to make the right decision". Should you swerve left or right, should you lock up or gas it? Really easy to armchair-quarter back, but to actually analyze and determine, in the time given, you are being completely ridiculous here. Part of my job is investigating accidents. My schooling was centered on ergonomics and human factors. Your statement here is simply wrong.

Dude, respectfully...please take a defensive driving course... seriously its beginning to sound like you need one. I took one, my insurance rates are where I like them because of it, I pay attention to everything that is happening around me at any given time while I'm driving. I do not text / drive / use the mobile, ect. I respect what my vehicle is capable of... Now to answer your question..

Like I stated before..watch your surroundings, calculate, watch people inside their vehicles and what they're doing, watch their tires and where they are going..there is no 100% "right decision" ..it depends on the situation.. but if you intend on using your brakes to the floor the second something goes haywire you MIGHT cause a bigger problem than what was already at hand.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

It's obvious that you are posting about what you emotionally feel. I have done the signal detection theory math and tests. I have been through the threshold tables and other ergonomic data. Here's the kicker:

There is no such thing as a "fully attentive driver". It doesn't exist. It's like a "law abiding citizen" or "true Scotsman". We make these things up in our mind that defy evidence and/or normal human behavior, but that's the only place they exist, in our mind.

You can't prove that with math and tests.. get behind the wheel, put the phone down, pay attention to the road and your surroundings and actually treat your license like it has more meaning than a plastic card handed off to as a gift card to the masses of people who know only half of the rules of the road.

When I drive, I KNOW that I am putting my life at the hands of others, and my own actions. Driving is fun, but driving is also dangerous. I respect driving and my automobile and its capacity to do serious harm to others therefor I treat it like a warzone, I am watching everything I can as I drive...am I paranoid? No.. I am "aware" and "alert" ... thats all it really takes..it's not rocket science and mathematical calculations.

[90503]

No steering wheel....No foot pedals....On the streets in 2019...

[JamesNoBrakes]

Like I stated before..watch your surroundings, calculate, watch people inside their vehicles and what they're doing, watch their tires and where they are going..there is no 100% "right decision" ..it depends on the situation.. but if you intend on using your brakes to the floor the second something goes haywire you MIGHT cause a bigger problem than what was already at hand.

How do you watch "everything" around you? How is this even possible?

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

You can't prove that with math and tests.

Yes, you can. Would you like me to tell you how?

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 90503

No steering wheel....No foot pedals....On the streets in 2019...

But not in my driveway.


Norm

[90503]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

But not in my driveway.


Norm

I would never go for a drive in that. It would be impossible to relax.

[Need4Camaro]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

How do you watch "everything" around you? How is this even possible?



Yes, you can. Would you like me to tell you how?

Unbelievable dude. How about taking your head and looking? move your eyes a bit? adjust your mirrors? check around vehicles, or even under them for potential threats?

How much attention do you really pay while you're driving?

Do you:

Check overpasses as you're passing under them, specifically single out a few cars and their colors, spot a state trooper on the bridge clocking traffic below? Calculate which of those drivers are likely to be turning onto the onramp for the freeway and if they will be merging specifically around the time you will meet the area of which the onramp meets the highway?

Check onramps as you're passing them with your right rear view mirror?

Look both ways before actually proceeding into an intersection only because a light turned green?

Look at the cross street you're approaching to make sure vehicles are indeed coming to a stop?

Please tell me you're atleast checking for pedestrians before you make a right turn?

These are just a few SMALL things you can do to train yourself to be more aware on the road.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by 90503

No steering wheel....No foot pedals....On the streets in 2019...

Lol! There you go folks, that's the future.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

Unbelievable dude. How about taking your head and looking? move your eyes a bit? adjust your mirrors? check around vehicles, or even under them for potential threats?

How much attention do you really pay while you're driving?

Do you:

Check overpasses as you're passing under them, specifically single out a few cars and their colors, spot a state trooper on the bridge clocking traffic below? Calculate which of those drivers are likely to be turning onto the onramp for the freeway and if they will be merging specifically around the time you will meet the area of which the onramp meets the highway?

Check onramps as you're passing them with your right rear view mirror?

Look both ways before actually proceeding into an intersection only because a light turned green?

Look at the cross street you're approaching to make sure vehicles are indeed coming to a stop?

Please tell me you're atleast checking for pedestrians before you make a right turn?

These are just a few SMALL things you can do to train yourself to be more aware on the road.

Ok, it appears you don't know much about what you are talking about here, but here is a book to get you started:

https://www.amazon.com/Human-Factors.../dp/0070448841

In short, it is not possible to "watch everything". No matter how good you think you are, you will miss things, for various reasons (SDT), this has been proven and many tests have been performed, including ones that I helped research or had direct knowledge of. You can look right at things and not even see them or miss critical information, in short, your brain sees what it wants to see much of the time, not necessarily what is there (you have no choice over this). One of my professors was head of GM ergonomics for a while too, he knew what he was talking about and had some pretty amazing insights. I kind of threw the bait out there for you with the "watch everything" line to see if you really thought it was possible to do this while driving or doing anything else. Your assertion that it is tells me all I need to know. I could break it down more simply for you at this point if you wish, will you continue to just disbelieve?

Your argument is no different than someone arguing why we don't need airbags, seatbelts, or steering-columns that kill you in a crash, that "if you just don't crash", you don't need any of this. If you, or any other human, were as capable as you claim, we wouldn't need computers for anything or any safety devices.

I completed a degree at the MS level centered around human factors and ergonomics (in design) and I'm pretty familiar with this and safety in general. I'm not advocating for systems that can't be disabled or to remove all driving, but your basic assumptions are founded on false premises.