[doc212121]

[QUOTE=Blackdevil77;8906633][QUOTE=doc212121;8906616]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

I did go to reputable shops to get the work done. My last car was a 2014 GT500. I originally got the Lund tune because that was what everybody had and swore by. Everything I researched pointed towards Lund. Got the tune and logged the car and was getting KR all over the place. I had to pull 5 degrees of timing to get rid of the KR. I post my findings and suddenly people are coming out of the wood work with the same problem. One just blew up his engine with that tune with 30k miles on the engine.

That was my last and most recent experience. I researched like hell before I pulled the trigger and didn't seem to do much good, which is why I'm weary of modding again.

And no, I don't own a 6th gen at the moment

I see, well I would never shelf tune a car no matter who the tuner is. Some people love them, not me, Ill spring for the dyno tune all day, its what the big boys do and they do it for a reason. And I thought AED had a better rep in the Ford world for that, but Im certainly not in the Ford space.....just feedback I hear from clients.

Glad you got rid of the GT500, go scoop up a 6th gen so you can get involved first hand!

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

I would bet Chevy won't. There traditionally have been varying levels for different budgets. SS, 1LE, Z/28. Chevy doesn't do poser levels under the same tag in order to look like something it is not.

I forgot, when your in the business of selling cars selling as many as possible is a bad thing. Thanks for reminding me!

What I meant was if they do a Z/28 again, I would think they might want to give the consumer a little more choice. Instead of the only options being A/C and radio maybe they will offer a package with a bit more creature comforts. Yes I understand that it is built for the track, but more choices never hurt anyone.

Just look at the Z06. You can get it with all the creature comforts they have to offer and still get the Z07 package

[Blackdevil77]

[QUOTE=doc212121;8906669][QUOTE=Blackdevil77;8906633]

Originally Posted by doc212121

I see, well I would never shelf tune a car no matter who the tuner is. Some people love them, not me, Ill spring for the dyno tune all day, its what the big boys do and they do it for a reason. And I thought AED had a better rep in the Ford world for that, but Im certainly not in the Ford space.....just feedback I hear from clients.

Glad you got rid of the GT500, go scoop up a 6th gen so you can get involved first hand!

That was the first and certainly the last time I ever try a canned tune.

I plan to jump on 6th gen bandwagon. I'm waiting on a 1LE SS.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I forgot, when your in the business of selling cars selling as many as possible is a bad thing. Thanks for reminding me!

What I meant was if they do a Z/28 again, I would think they might want to give the consumer a little more choice. Instead of the only options being A/C and radio maybe they will offer a package with a bit more creature comforts. Yes I understand that it is built for the track, but more choices never hurt anyone.

Just look at the Z06. You can get it with all the creature comforts they have to offer and still get the Z07 package

Gotcha. More comfort equipment on a Z/28 I could see but consider the 1LE. It pretty much comes one way. What I do not see Chevy doing is the base, TP, R approach. It will come balls out, period. No track car with a track option.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

Gotcha. More comfort equipment on a Z/28 I could see but consider the 1LE. It pretty much comes one way. What I do not see Chevy doing is the base, TP, R approach. It will come balls out, period. No track car with a track option.

Got ya. Yeah that was what I meant. More creature comforts for the top model. and maybe an option with more street friendly tires lol

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

The ZL1, while I'm sure is gonna be incredible, will certainly weigh quite a bit more than a 1LE, and much of that weight will probably be in the front. So my question is, do you think there will be an in between, N/A model that is much like the 1LE, but with a little bit of a power bump? Something a little north of 500 naturally aspirated horsepower while not gaining any weight or added complications of a supercharger would be fantastic. I'm probably thinking along the lines of a Z28.

If the Z/28 follows the same formula as last generation, it's going to be a factory stripper built solely for the racetrack, and we'll have to pay out of the nose for it.

What will be curious to see is the engine they choose. The days of N/A high-horsepower are virtually over. The LS7 was on life-support most of its life because it couldn't pass emissions tests....

But......before you write off the ZL1...consider that the 1LE already has the "big heavy brakes". So all that will be added to the front end of the car in terms of weight is 50 pound worth of supercharger components...and the bulk of the engine is mounted behind the front axle. I expect the new ZL1 to be very well-balanced.

[CrystalRedTintcoat]

But will there be a ZL1? Not stated in the affirmative according to this video http://youtu.be/MLPvxA131t0


-CRT

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by CrystalRedTintcoat

But will there be a ZL1? Not stated in the affirmative according to this video http://youtu.be/MLPvxA131t0


-CRT

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

They never talk about future product. And he's right...the 1LE is the most track-capable Camaro...right now.

But they're working on something else.....

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

If the Z/28 follows the same formula as last generation, it's going to be a factory stripper built solely for the racetrack, and we'll have to pay out of the nose for it.

What will be curious to see is the engine they choose. The days of N/A high-horsepower are virtually over. The LS7 was on life-support most of its life because it couldn't pass emissions tests....

But......before you write off the ZL1...consider that the 1LE already has the "big heavy brakes". So all that will be added to the front end of the car in terms of weight is 50 pound worth of supercharger components...and the bulk of the engine is mounted behind the front axle. I expect the new ZL1 to be very well-balanced.

If they do build a Z/28, I don't think it will be as expensive. The issue the 5th gen Z/28 faced was the cost of the LS7. Putting an LS7 in a 1LE would have made the car cost as much as the ZL1 but would have been slower around a track. In order to get the higher performance, they had to take it to the next level. The LT4 is not as expensive as the LS9, so I doubt the n/a LTx would be as expensive as the LS7.

[neal_zack]

should be interesting given the price difference between the mustang and the 1LE

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

If they do build a Z/28, I don't think it will be as expensive. The issue the 5th gen Z/28 faced was the cost of the LS7. Putting an LS7 in a 1LE would have made the car cost as much as the ZL1 but would have been slower around a track. In order to get the higher performance, they had to take it to the next level. The LT4 is not as expensive as the LS9, so I doubt the n/a LTx would be as expensive as the LS7.

It's interesting you bring up engine prices...I've been playing with those figures...

(These are rounded retail prices from Chevy performance)

LS3: $7500
LT1: $10500
LSA: $13500
LT4: $15000
LS7: $15800

If turning an "LS" engine block into an LS7 cost $8000 more than an LS3...what would it cost to do that to an LT1?

Interestingly...I think people don't need to look very far to find out why the SS Camaro costs more than last generation...The LT1 retails for $3000 more than the LS3...

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

It's interesting you bring up engine prices...I've been playing with those figures...

(These are rounded retail prices from Chevy performance)

LS3: $7500
LT1: $10500
LSA: $13500
LT4: $15000
LS7: $15800

If turning an "LS" engine block into an LS7 cost $8000 more than an LS3...what would it cost to do that to an LT1?

Interestingly...I think people don't need to look very far to find out why the SS Camaro costs more than last generation...The LT1 retails for $3000 more than the LS3...

I know the LS7 had a unique block with pressed in liners instead of cast in. That, coupled with the longer stroke and titanium pieces increased the cost substantially.

That's why I think going with an LS6-like version of the LTx makes the most sense. The LS6 wasn't much more expensive despite the 15% increase in output over the LS1.

Looking at the torque curve of the LT1, it hits a wall at 4,800 rpm and drops off relatively quickly. Find a way to carry it higher in the rpm range and you will have almost the same power and torque as the LS7 without the cost.

I'm curious as to what the LT1 costs GM over the LS3.

The LT4 is almost $6k cheaper than the LS9. I imagine an LT1 based hi po engine would be cheaper than the LS7 by a similar amount.

[DGthe3]

To the next person that replies to one of the string of broken quotes ...

please type ' [/quote] ' before writing the rest of your post.

Originally Posted by RealG

In the old days you could get a 325, 350 or 375 HP 396 motor. With today's technology they could've easily made two or three LT series steps available for the new Camaro

Its not a technology problem.

Every engine needs to be certified for emissions, fuel economy, and (due to GM's own personal preference), power. And are all the cars going to be built with the 'heavy duty' hardware of the most powerful engine -making the cars heavier than they need to be? Or will each car get appropriately robust transmissions, dif, and axles -driving up the costs of everything because fewer parts are shared?

Plus, while its very easy to scale back power its extremely difficult for an OEM to increase it (due to emissions and durability requirements). So instead of having a 455 hp LT1, a 485 hp LT2, and a 515 hp LT3 ... in reality it would probably turn out more like 455, 425, and 395. Since the lower power engines would have to be sold for less than the high output ones, there is another problem: pricing. Either they would have to charge the same for the 455 that they do now & discount everything else (costing themselves revenue) OR charge just as much for the low powered engine as they currently do for the LT1, then ask people to pay thousands extra to get more power. Either way, someone is getting screwed over compared to just offering the best possible engine that they can.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I forgot, when your in the business of selling cars selling as many as possible is a bad thing. Thanks for reminding me!

The goal for pretty much every single company is to make as much profit as they can. Everyones approach to achieving that is going to be different. And the number of tradeoffs and if this/then that links is incredible for something as complex as a car.

Originally Posted by shaffe

What I meant was if they do a Z/28 again, I would think they might want to give the consumer a little more choice. Instead of the only options being A/C and radio maybe they will offer a package with a bit more creature comforts. Yes I understand that it is built for the track, but more choices never hurt anyone.

Just look at the Z06. You can get it with all the creature comforts they have to offer and still get the Z07 package

Choice always has a consequence. Mostly cost. If there was never any downside, every car would have an infinitely long option sheet. When you have 2 different things instead of just one, it is more expensive. I'm not talking about the fact that the upgrade costs more -thats pretty much a given. I'm saying that the existence of that upgrade raises the cost of the base equipment. The fixed costs (tooling, engineering, design, etc) for everything need get spread thicker the more variety you have.

It helps a bit to throw some hypothetical numbers in here. Lets say it costs 500,000 to make some specific part. That pays for a small team a few weeks to design it, plus the tooling to make it. If you spread that cost over 100,000 units each part needs to cover $5. But now you decide make an alternative, optional part. It will boost sales by 10%, and 20% of the original buyers will opt for this premium option as well. However, it costs another 250,000 to produce (mostly tooling, but some design work as well). So now, you've got $500,000 spread over 80,000 sales ($6.25 per) plus $250,000 spread over 30,000 sales ($8.33 per). On average, it comes to an extra $6.82 per whatchamadealy. Keep in mind that this is on top of whatever the different material costs are, the logistics costs associated with the additional inventory, the reduced productivity that comes from workers needing to make a choice when assembling things, and on and on and on.

Of course, the average consumer sees none of that. But for automakers, its all a delicate balancing act. In most cases, some choice is best. In others, lots of choices are. And in yet others, it makes the most sense to offer only a single choice: buy it our way or not at all. And its all done according to how they can get the most profit possible.

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

I know the LS7 had a unique block with pressed in liners instead of cast in. That, coupled with the longer stroke and titanium pieces increased the cost substantially.

That's why I think going with an LS6-like version of the LTx makes the most sense. The LS6 wasn't much more expensive despite the 15% increase in output over the LS1.

Looking at the torque curve of the LT1, it hits a wall at 4,800 rpm and drops off relatively quickly. Find a way to carry it higher in the rpm range and you will have almost the same power and torque as the LS7 without the cost.

I'm curious as to what the LT1 costs GM over the LS3.

The LT4 is almost $6k cheaper than the LS9. I imagine an LT1 based hi po engine would be cheaper than the LS7 by a similar amount.

I'm guessing all the efficiency hardware is driving up the cost. The displacement on demand, variable valve timing, direct injection etc. The LS3 was more simple.