[NASTY99Z28]

I do love how people compare a car built with a completely different engine and trans combo to a car with a basic performance package from the factory. Wouldn't a gt350 be on the same level as the z/28 not the 1le? And yes the mags will compare a basic ss to a gt350 and it by all means better win when its lighter has the same mrc and its special engine. In my book that's nothing worth bragging about. But until gm offers something it will give the ford lovers something to be happy for even though they all say road racing is gau and only care about drag racing. A lot of them have bcome quite the hypocrite about that area of motorsports.

[NASTY99Z28]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

Not defending the Mustang any more or less than I am the Camaro. As someone who has owned various years/versions of both (and still do) one out-performing the other does not bother me in the slightest.

I never said the GT PP was not good on the track, I just said it was not specifically engineered for that venue as the 1LE package was. I think the results illustrate that.

MRC was NOT pioneered by GM. Check your facts.

I agree with your points regarding affordability. However, while the 2015 MY GT350/GT350R are very limited in number, that is not the case with the 2016 MY, which is what I was referencing.

Again, if having stock performance bragging rights is important to you, by all means, buy the car that gives you that. But here we are, many posts later, and nobody is addressing the question of why some perceive the Alpha as a better chassis than the one that underpins the Mustang. It's just the same old, tired Camaro versus Mustang talking points.

What does the 1le package offer that the PP doesn't? Break them down part by part.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by NASTY99Z28

Wrong again. Gm created Delphi which created mrc.

Oh boy, let's take the thread even more off-topic. Yes, Delphi was a GM company until 1999, when it became it's own independent corporation. MRC was developed after that date and was licensed by GM for use by Cadillac. They also licensed the tech to other companies. I do agree, however, that GM was the first to make broad use of the tech. I loved it on my ZL1.

Originally Posted by NASTY99Z28

What does the 1le package offer that the PP doesn't? Break them down part by part.

I'm sure that has already been done. Search is your friend.

And just to get the thread back on track, the answer to the question posed depends on how GM packages the Gen6 Camaro. If they offer MRC on the SS as part of a track package along the lines of the 1LE oackage on the 5thGen, then they will have a base GT350 competitor. Or they won't, as done suggest the SS w/MRC will only be a GT PP competitor. In that case, GM will not have a GT350 answer at launch.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

Oh boy, let's take the thread even more off-topic. Yes, Delphi was a GM company until 1999, when it became it's own independent corporation. MRC was developed after that date and was licensed by GM for use by Cadillac. They also licensed the tech to other companies. I do agree, however, that GM was the first to make broad use of the tech. I loved it on my ZL1.

I'm sure that has already been done. Search is your friend.

And just to get the thread back on track, the answer to the question posed depends on how GM packages the Gen6 Camaro. If they offer MRC on the SS as part of a track package along the lines of the 1LE oackage on the 5thGen, then they will have a base GT350 competitor. Or they won't, as done suggest the SS w/MRC will only be a GT PP competitor. In that case, GM will not have a GT350 answer at launch.

I see the Mustang fact spin machine is in full force now that a Mustang has a gm developed suspension technology. The mrc used first in the Sts and soon after Corvette along with many other Gm cars was developed as a joint venture between GM and Delphi. Delphi was, just a few years earlier owned by GM but when MRC was released they were not an owner, but a major share holder.

Joint venture. Between GM and a company GM recently owned but currently was a controlling share holder.

So yes, it's GM developed technology and it was Ferarri who licensed the tech FROM GM. In exchange GM got some carbon ceramic brake technology and I'm sure there were more aspects to the deal.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by VADER SS L99

When the GT is lighter, more powerful, on a brand new improved platform and has much better brakes vs a car at the end of its life? Yeah, its completely surprising and embarrasing for Fords 50th Anniversary Mustang.

The 1LE is the only performance package that you can put on a SS so its a completely fair comparison. If anything the 1LE should have been at a major disadvantage. The 1LE never should have won that comparison and I didnt think it would. When I read it did I was majorly surprised and totally disapointed with Ford's EPIC FAIL. The Ford team knew what the 1LE could do and could have made damn sure its car out performed the out of date 1LE. Especially considering those brakes. The 1LE gets standard SS brakes. The GT PP gets 6 piston calipers with massive 15" rotors to the SS's 4 piston calipers and 14" rotors. I don't do any road course racing but I have been told brakes are just as important as tires.

A 1LE is NOT a direct competitor to a GT350 nor is ANY SS trim model. This is laughable. This actually did make me laugh out loud when I read it. The GT350 is a completely different model with a different engine and transmission. The 1LE is a performance package put onto the SS just like a performance package is put onto a GT. The 1LE is still a SS.

I also think anyone who says the Camaro Alpha platform is better than the S550 before the car has even been tested is jumping to conclusions. I think it WILL be. But that is just a prediction and not a bold statement like some other fan boy comments.

Some of you love to throw that fan boy statement around.

Seeing as how the S550 has done nothing but disappoint in performance, losing to the 5th generation Camaro it's a bit more than jumping to a conclusion.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by IOMike

Some of you love to throw that fan boy statement around.

Seeing as how the S550 has done nothing but disappoint in performance, losing to the 5th generation Camaro it's a bit more than jumping to a conclusion.

I think I see where the issue lies. When I say S550, I am speaking about the chassis the Mustang was built on, not the Mustang itself. Based on your post, I think you are speaking of the S550 Mustang being a disappointment, not the chassis itself.

So, let me ask the question again, does anybody have any technical information regarding why the Alpha platform is better to build a car around than the S550 platform?

[NASTY99Z28]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

Oh boy, let's take the thread even more off-topic. Yes, Delphi was a GM company until 1999, when it became it's own independent corporation. MRC was developed after that date and was licensed by GM for use by Cadillac. They also licensed the tech to other companies. I do agree, however, that GM was the first to make broad use of the tech. I loved it on my ZL1.

I'm sure that has already been done. Search is your friend.

And just to get the thread back on track, the answer to the question posed depends on how GM packages the Gen6 Camaro. If they offer MRC on the SS as part of a track package along the lines of the 1LE oackage on the 5thGen, then they will have a base GT350 competitor. Or they won't, as done suggest the SS w/MRC will only be a GT PP competitor. In that case, GM will not have a GT350 answer at launch.

Well I only touched on what you spoke of "mrc".

And I said to compare the options so that you could see how close they truly are. No matter what you aren't gonna see the truth so I'll stop trying to help.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by IOMike

I see the Mustang fact spin machine is in full force now that a Mustang has a gm developed suspension technology. The mrc used first in the Sts and soon after Corvette along with many other Gm cars was developed as a joint venture between GM and Delphi. Delphi was, just a few years earlier owned by GM but when MRC was released they were not an owner, but a major share holder.

Joint venture. Between GM and a company GM recently owned but currently was a controlling share holder.

So yes, it's GM developed technology and it was Ferarri who licensed the tech FROM GM. In exchange GM got some carbon ceramic brake technology and I'm sure there were more aspects to the deal.

Lol I know. A mustang fan can NEVER admit gm had the better idea/ engineering that is now being used on one of their own. It is rather embarrassing. Especially when just a couple years ago SRA was better than irs to the blind fanboys. Good times haha. Not only did they switch to irs following the camaros lead. They also adapted MRC... Follow follow follow...

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

I think I see where the issue lies. When I say S550, I am speaking about the chassis the Mustang was built on, not the Mustang itself. Based on your post, I think you are speaking of the S550 Mustang being a disappointment, not the chassis itself.

So, let me ask the question again, does anybody have any technical information regarding why the Alpha platform is better to build a car around than the S550 platform?

The alpha chassis uses 70 percent parts that are unique to the camaro for 2016. I'm not an engineer. And it's early. Sorry can't answer that which is probably why you asked it.

It takes the intelligence of around an 8 year old to realize that if the gtpp couldn't beat the 1le on an old platform the new alpha has more than a good chance of besting/ having more potential than the Mustangs. And now we aren't down on power or up in weight. It doesn't look good for them to say the least...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

So, let me ask the question again, does anybody have any technical information regarding why the Alpha platform is better to build a car around than the S550 platform?

You keep asking that question but it is the Ford guys that are saying Alpha is a sedan and the Camaro will suffer for it. Also claim the brakes are too small and the cooling system is a engineering bandaid. Explain why that is after the success of gen5

Answering your question. Chevy dominated on the track in gen5 and the old 1LE was clearly better than the GT PP. The PP option that Mustang's chief engineer claimed was the best handling Mustang ever. Better than the Boss.

[khell86]

Originally Posted by hotlapZL1

You keep asking that question but it is the Ford guys that are saying Alpha is a sedan and the Camaro will suffer for it. Also claim the brakes are too small and the cooling system is a engineering bandaid. Explain why that is after the success of gen5

Answering your question. Chevy dominated on the track in gen5 and the old 1LE was clearly better than the GT PP. The PP option that Mustang's chief engineer claimed was the best handling Mustang ever. Better than the Boss.

I thought it was 1 for 1 for the 1LE and 15 GT? The 15 GT did also best the Boss so ford delivered on everything it said it would. I do think a rightfully equipped SS will beat a 15 GT though. Ford's PP just isn't track oriented enough to offer anything to compete against a package like the 1LE. Hopefully that's rectified in MY17 with trickle down GT350 parts.

[jessrayo]

Well I can see I opened a can of worms here. Many have asked what makes me think the Alpha platform is better than the current Mustang. I'm just going to say call it an educated guess.

So how do I come to this conclusion, well I have been a casual road racer for many years. I have been fortunate enough to run some laps in some very fast cars in my life, Ferrari, Lambo, included. In years past I was not a big GM fan. I was so impressed with the original stock ZL1 and the laps good drivers were running that I decided I had to have one.

The gen5 Camaro was much more solid on a race track than the previous generation mustang. I can run pretty fast laps in the Gen5 ZL1 but it is kind of like riding a bull (yes I've done this too) a lot of work with a lot of mass under you. The Gen5 ZL1 never feels light but it is incredible what it can do with so much mass. It was obvious GM was on to something.

Then GM released the C7 stingray. They had so tuned the C7 Z51 chassis that on many tracks it was an exact match for the lighter an more powerful C6 Z06. I bought one and I must admit I'm still amazed at how locked down the car chassis and suspension feels without a single mod (now cooling is another issue). Somehow the engineers have really raised the bar and then they took what they knew and applied it to the Gen5 Camaro in the form of the Z/28. I still have not driven the modern z/28 but I have seen how they raised the bar another notch by basically out running everything with even more power and less mass.

I have driven the current Cadillac ATS and wow... much like the C7 it handles way above what its spec sheet would suggest when you push it. It was a friends car and she was shocked at how fast it would corner with no drama, and so was I. Now, rather than trying to work magic on a heavyweight, the new Camaro is starting with this lighter chassis and to be honest the things GM performance have done in the last few years are amazing. I'm going out on a limb based on the components I have seen for the new SS and the engineering track record to say this is going to be one very good handling car.

I don't think the Ford is a bad chassis, I actually have not driven the new mustang yet. But as others have pointed out they seem to be behind on the learning curve. The new GT cannot surpass the old 1LE and based on what just happened with the vette I fully expect the new SS to push well beyond the old 1LE into ZL1 and Z/28 handling characteristics..... just my opinion.

[titanfan]

Originally Posted by jessrayo

Well I can see I opened a can of worms here. Many have asked what makes me think the Alpha platform is better than the current Mustang. I'm just going to say call it an educated guess.

So how do I come to this conclusion, well I have been a casual road racer for many years. I have been fortunate enough to run some laps in some very fast cars in my life, Ferrari, Lambo, included. In years past I was not a big GM fan. I was so impressed with the original stock ZL1 and the laps good drivers were running that I decided I had to have one.

The gen5 Camaro was much more solid on a race track than the previous generation mustang. I can run pretty fast laps in the Gen5 ZL1 but it is kind of like riding a bull (yes I've done this too) a lot of work with a lot of mass under you. The Gen5 ZL1 never feels light but it is incredible what it can do with so much mass. It was obvious GM was on to something.

Then GM released the C7 stingray. They had so tuned the C7 Z51 chassis that on many tracks it was an exact match for the lighter an more powerful C6 Z06. I bought one and I must admit I'm still amazed at how locked down the car chassis and suspension feels without a single mod (now cooling is another issue). Somehow the engineers have really raised the bar and then they took what they knew and applied it to the Gen5 Camaro in the form of the Z/28. I still have not driven the modern z/28 but I have seen how they raised the bar another notch by basically out running everything with even more power and less mass.

I have driven the current Cadillac ATS and wow... much like the C7 it handles way above what its spec sheet would suggest when you push it. It was a friends car and she was shocked at how fast it would corner with no drama, and so was I. Now, rather than trying to work magic on a heavyweight, the new Camaro is starting with this lighter chassis and to be honest the things GM performance have done in the last few years are amazing. I'm going out on a limb based on the components I have seen for the new SS and the engineering track record to say this is going to be one very good handling car.

I don't think the Ford is a bad chassis, I actually have not driven the new mustang yet. But as others have pointed out they seem to be behind on the learning curve. The new GT cannot surpass the old 1LE and based on what just happened with the vette I fully expect the new SS to push well beyond the old 1LE into ZL1 and Z/28 handling characteristics..... just my opinion.

Thanks for your input. Finally, somebody able/willing to address the chassis question without turning the thread into a Chevy Rules/Ford Drools rehash. As a former owner of a ZL1, I echo a lot of what you say about how that car handled despite it's heft. Through the years, I've had the opportunity to put several iterations of the Mustang and Camaro through their paces at Barber and Road Atlanta, including a PP equipped 2015 GT, and I can unbiasedly say the chassis under this new car is much more confidence-inspiring then the S197 chassis. Much more. I have not yet had the opportunity to track an Alpha car, but based on your feedback, it sounds like it is equally impressive.

[NASTY99Z28]

Originally Posted by ztwentypoop

Thanks for your input. Finally, somebody able/willing to address the chassis question without turning the thread into a Chevy Rules/Ford Drools rehash. As a former owner of a ZL1, I echo a lot of what you say about how that car handled despite it's heft. Through the years, I've had the opportunity to put several iterations of the Mustang and Camaro through their paces at Barber and Road Atlanta, including a PP equipped 2015 GT, and I can unbiasedly say the chassis under this new car is much more confidence-inspiring then the S197 chassis. Much more. I have not yet had the opportunity to track an Alpha car, but based on your feedback, it sounds like it is equally impressive.

You're a funny man. Complain about others "polluting" the threads when all you did was praise ford and ignore the obvious so that it would better suite the point you attempted to make yet failed. Nobody ever said the s550 chassis wasn't any good. It was simply stated that it wasn't as good as some would preach because it tied or lost to an older,heavier car with less power. Yes its better than the previous stang but is it better than what gm offers? So far I'd say no based on testing of the 1le,zl1 and caddy's.