[newmoon]

Originally Posted by PRAY

Wow, you guys really need to go back and read what I am saying. I do think it is awesome that Dodge is pushing the envelope and driving the market. That is great for all of us. Ford and Dodge have been crushing GM in this department for a while and we got the C7Z and the ZL1's because of it. I have no brand loyalties. I love and respect anything that is fast. Even more so if it came from the factory ready to ride and all we have to do was tweak it a bit. Not having any loyalties allows me to call out or praise all of the manufactures.

I have stated that I would buy a Demon, with some tweaks, or buy a Hellcat and mod that. I personally feel that with all the advancement Dodge has made with now offering AWD chassis in their popular muscle cars that they would have incorporated that with the Demon. I complimented the superchiller being a factory item. I am assuming that is must have some sort of killer launch controller or an ability to set a trans brake of sorts to set launch rpm. Another huge bonus that I think all the big three should implement in their automatic cars. But reading through the statements that this is going to roll off the show room floor straight to the drag strip and run 9's is ludicrous. Even with the *stock* DR's I don't see it running 9's. I feel really bad for any person that pays the price tag for this car and thinks they are driving the baddest thing ever built off the show room floor. I will have to look up the NTO5r's. I am glad that it will at least be rolling out with some traction. I don't see 100 octane gas pumps driving around my area every day, maybe you guys do. And as mentioned above you have to swap ECM's and all the other stuff. So comparing it's maxed out drag times to other stock cars out there is a bit silly as well. I wouldn't go as far as calling it childish, but silly for sure.

Hellcats and the like are heavy and over powered for the tires and suspension they come with. This issue seems to be addressed on the Demon but with all that power, even on the Nitto's they will need proper tire pressure and heat to hook at all on asphalt. They get stomped on the street all the time by much lesser cars. By much lesser, I mean, Camaros, Mustangs, Corvettes and the like. I will say that the C7Z is on par power to weight wise. I see them (Hellcats) get murdered at the track as well if they are on street tires or on DR's with a bad driver. They do well after a half an hour or so with a bag of ice on the blower. From a 60 roll they do great, below that it is a smoke show. These are just simple facts. So my "overpowered Dodge" comments holds weight and has merit.

Like I said, if you buy a car with one seat in it and drive around on your drag pack on 100 octane, you bought a drag car. For a drag car, this one is slow compared to the other drag car offerings from the other manufactures. Put a full interior in it and put it on pump gas like 99% of people do with the cars they drive and it is just as fast as any other modded car out there and probably much slower than the competition others mentioned earlier.

I apologize if what I was trying to convey was not done well earlier. I try to only provide the best information I can to the community at large in all that I contribute.

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Question for you. Can't any car with a bad driver and stock rubber get murdered at the track or is this only the case with Hellcats, as you seem to imply? Next question which car will be easier to get into the 10s stock, A8 Hellcat, A10 ZL1 with or without DRs?

[mcsoul]

Originally Posted by PRAY

Didn't Toohighpsi just run those same MPH's with his blower and fuel combo? His 60ft is a tenth off but won't be for long.

I am super digging that they did a "superchiller" on a production car. That was an awesome call on their part.

I think it's Dodge's Launch that will be tough to deal with.
Stall torque converter -> Transbrake -> Engine boost -> Mechanical weight redistribution

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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Question for you. Can't any car with a bad driver and stock rubber get murdered at the track or is this only the case with Hellcats, as you seem to imply? Next question which car will be easier to get into the 10s stock, A8 Hellcat, A10 ZL1 with or without DRs?

To answer your first question, of course, any car with a bad driver will not perform well. But with the amazing power and tq available from say a Hellcat or any other PD factory car it is much, much harder to launch correctly. Even on DR's on factory rims it is very difficult to get a heavy car with not enough tire out of the hole. I, and many others have gone mid 1.7's on the stock street rubber in Camaros. Guys have been faster in Corvettes. I have seen well driven Scat Packs run amazing numbers with very minimal bolt ons. Less power, less weight, easier to get out of the hole. I hope this answer is satisfactory for you.

Question 2. I have absolutely no clue about an A10 ZL1. Any opinion at this point would be pure conjecture. I believe I have seen on line that a guy ran 11.1@127+ bone stock I believe. Don't know the DA or track though. The fastest Hellcat "stock" I have personally seen in around 0 DA was 10.78@127.4 on DR's. I believe he had a CAI as well. That was the bag of ice reference for half an hour as stated in an earlier post. There are about 7 Hellcats at the track every weekend and I know and talk to all of them. There are about the same number of Scat Packs. I have not seen a A10 ZL1 at my track in any form so as stated above, I have no comment on them yet.

[VAZL1]

She is mack daddy nasty on the strip, I believe that's considered mission accomplished!
Nothing but respect for what they did, no need to tear it down or compare. Kudos to Dodge...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by PRAY

To answer your first question, of course, any car with a bad driver will not perform well. But with the amazing power and tq available from say a Hellcat or any other PD factory car it is much, much harder to launch correctly. Even on DR's on factory rims it is very difficult to get a heavy car with not enough tire out of the hole. I, and many others have gone mid 1.7's on the stock street rubber in Camaros. Guys have been faster in Corvettes. I have seen well driven Scat Packs run amazing numbers with very minimal bolt ons. Less power, less weight, easier to get out of the hole. I hope this answer is satisfactory for you.

Question 2. I have absolutely no clue about an A10 ZL1. Any opinion at this point would be pure conjecture. I believe I have seen on line that a guy ran 11.1@127+ bone stock I believe. Don't know the DA or track though. The fastest Hellcat "stock" I have personally seen in around 0 DA was 10.78@127.4 on DR's. I believe he had a CAI as well. That was the bag of ice reference for half an hour as stated in an earlier post. There are about 7 Hellcats at the track every weekend and I know and talk to all of them. There are about the same number of Scat Packs. I have not seen a A10 ZL1 at my track in any form so as stated above, I have no comment on them yet.

The Hellcat isn't too far off from other Muscle Cars as far as weight is concerned. The 6th Gen ZL1 can get to just over 4100 lbs depending on options. The CTS-V Sedan is right around the same weight but just a little more. The Hellcat weighs I think around 4300-4500 lbs. And the Demon will probably be in the same range. If you know what you're doing and know how to mod these things and how to drive them then I don't think weight will be much of an issue. I've seen plenty of CTS-V sedans with headers, bolt-ons, smaller pulley, and a dyno tune run in the high 10s and low 11s. And that is with around 550 to the wheels. The Demon will have about 100 or more hp to the wheels than the CTS-V sedan and almost the same weight. And as it is from the factory the thing is incredible. So I can definitely see some people doing small mods and coming out doing low 10s easily even without the race settings or race gas ECU or whatever. It is going to be an animal no matter how you slice it.

And all these cars are porkers when you think about it, lol!! It's because they all have the performance we want and the options that some of us want. The Hellcat in particular has heated steering wheels on some of them. Add in all the other options and creature comforts along with a size that can comfortably accommodate tall people or passengers comfortably and the structural integrity to handle THAT much HP/TQ and you're gonna have a hefty vehicle. There's just no way around it.

[PRAY]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The Hellcat isn't too far off from other Muscle Cars as far as weight is concerned. The 6th Gen ZL1 can get to just over 4100 lbs depending on options. The CTS-V Sedan is right around the same weight but just a little more. The Hellcat weighs I think around 4300-4500 lbs. And the Demon will probably be in the same range. If you know what you're doing and know how to mod these things and how to drive them then I don't think weight will be much of an issue. I've seen plenty of CTS-V sedans with headers, bolt-ons, smaller pulley, and a dyno tune run in the high 10s and low 11s. And that is with around 550 to the wheels. The Demon will have about 100 or more hp to the wheels than the CTS-V sedan and almost the same weight. And as it is from the factory the thing is incredible. So I can definitely see some people doing small mods and coming out doing low 10s easily even without the race settings or race gas ECU or whatever. It is going to be an animal no matter how you slice it.

And all these cars are porkers when you think about it, lol!! It's because they all have the performance we want and the options that some of us want. The Hellcat in particular has heated steering wheels on some of them. Add in all the other options and creature comforts along with a size that can comfortably accommodate tall people or passengers comfortably and the structural integrity to handle THAT much HP/TQ and you're gonna have a hefty vehicle. There's just no way around it.

I absolutely agree with you. I was just getting on here to add to my above comments on which will get to the 10's quicker or first.

I will go with the lightest one with the best suspension, tires and gearing. So I think I will have to take the ZL1 in this particular case. Less weight, less power, better suspension and gearing. I don't know what size tires either comes with but all my buddies with Hellcats complain about the stock tires.

What was said above is where I was trying to go with my original comments. The Demon makes so much power and is so well designed that I wished it was AWD and all decked on the inside so that in any form and under any conditions it was a world beater. I wasn't bashing it, I was disappointed that anyone out there with other cars of any sort could say the things I was saying about the peak muscle car from the Big 3.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by PRAY

I absolutely agree with you. I was just getting on here to add to my above comments on which will get to the 10's quicker or first.

I will go with the lightest one with the best suspension, tires and gearing. So I think I will have to take the ZL1 in this particular case. Less weight, less power, better suspension and gearing. I don't know what size tires either comes with but all my buddies with Hellcats complain about the stock tires.

What was said above is where I was trying to go with my original comments. The Demon makes so much power and is so well designed that I wished it was AWD and all decked on the inside so that in any form and under any conditions it was a world beater. I wasn't bashing it, I was disappointed that anyone out there with other cars of any sort could say the things I was saying about the peak muscle car from the Big 3.

AWD would be nice. I notice that Dodge is the only manufacturer that makes a Muscle Car with AWD...but it is only available in their V6 models. AWD would probably add way too much weight for the V8 versions. But with a trans-brake and launch control and the suspension that the Demon will have, I don't think it is absolutely necessary to have AWD. Some of these features kinda make up for it. I would pick the ZL1 also but mainly based on price. You can get a ZL1 for around mid $60K. But if history is any indicator, the Demon will have mark-ups that'll make it way not worth the price. The Hellcat had huge markups as well. And for that matter, so did the GT350. It seems that Chevy is the only one who doesn't have $5,000-$25,000 mark-ups on their car.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

AWD would be nice. I notice that Dodge is the only manufacturer that makes a Muscle Car with AWD...but it is only available in their V6 models.

You just contracted yourself. It can't be considered a muscle car if it doesn't have a V8. Dodge "used" to make an AWD muscle car when the Charger RTs could be equipped with AWD. That boat (literally lol) has sailed though.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You just contracted yourself. It can't be considered a muscle car if it doesn't have a V8. Dodge "used" to make an AWD muscle car when the Charger RTs could be equipped with AWD. That boat (literally lol) has sailed though.

Technically, I did not contradict myself. Dodge did. They advertised it as the only "Muscle Car" with AWD...and the AWD option is only on the V6. We could go back and forth on what the definition of "Muscle Car" really is. But if a Muscle Car only comes with a V8, then technically the Mustang, Charger, Camaro, Challenger, nor the Corvette would qualify as all of them at one time or another had a V6 offered from the factory. Even the Viper wouldn't be a Muscle car since it never had a V8. But I don't make those distinctions. I consider Muscle Car based on make and model.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Technically, I did not contradict myself. Dodge did. They advertised it as the only "Muscle Car" with AWD...and the AWD option is only on the V6. We could go back and forth on what the definition of "Muscle Car" really is. But if a Muscle Car only comes with a V8, then technically the Mustang, Charger, Camaro, Challenger, nor the Corvette would qualify as all of them at one time or another had a V6 offered from the factory. Even the Viper wouldn't be a Muscle car since it never had a V8. But I don't make those distinctions. I consider Muscle Car based on make and model.

No there's a difference between a car that has different trims with non-V8 engines and one that only comes with a V6. I wouldn't call a V6/turbo 4 Mustang, Camaro, or Challenger a muscle car to begin with. With their V8 trims, sure you can use that, I personally would reserve the term for any of the 3 with the most powerful engine available as a muscle car, but you are right it's an ambiguous term but no car from the 60's or 70's was ever called a muscle car that didn't have a V8. And everyone of them had options for a straight six, so it's still the same today. As for calling a muscle based on make and model, would you consider these muscle cars? I think not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Daytona
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Charger_(L-body)

There's probably a few more but I can't think of them right now. Not picking on Dodge but they are the worst at committing sacrilege with their use of naming. When the Charger was reintroduced it was sacrilege (4 doors) and technically is not a muscle car, but I think we can forgive that one since it can be had with real power.

"The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports cars with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving"

I would personally stick with this definition because even some cars that "were" muscle cars at one point, definitely weren't later in life even though they still had a V8. That would also cover some class breaking cars like the G-body cars of the 80s which could walk most V8 cars at the time.

Sorry I know I thread jacked, but that Challenger GT is not a muscle car by any definition. You can't make a car slower than it's RWD counterpart and call it muscle. It is anti-muscle.

[swiftkart]

What about the 2017 Camaro Fireball 900 available off Chevy dealership show room floor in OK with warranty and runs 9.006@149 mph.