03-10-2013, 05:38 PM | #477 | |
Hail to the King baby!
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03-10-2013, 08:11 PM | #478 | ||
Drives: 2016 Mazda6, 2011 Mustang 5.0 Join Date: Mar 2010
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2.5 22/32 2.0T 21/31 3.6 19/28 Again, apples and oranges. EPA numbers are misleading and don't tell the whole story. As you mentioned, the heavier, larger Camaro with the same 3.6L gets a 30 rating. Clearly, the 3.6L ATS is not fuel economy oriented. However, the 2.0T ATS may well be. With similar orientations, my money says the ratings would be much closer, perhaps even identical between the engines, with the V6 producing 50 more hp. And speaking of EPA numbers, there is a world of difference between EPA ratings and actual real world mileage. Downsized and turbocharged engines aren't actually delivering the fuel economy increases their EPA stickers are promising. Just ask any Ford owner with an EcoBoost, or a Cruze owner, or any of the others who actually keep track of their mileage. If engineers were chasing actual fuel economy gains (not to mention cost effectiveness), and not just flawed EPA ratings, they would keep larger displacement N/A engines and design in cylinder deactivation rather than develop whole new downsized and turbocharged engines. Listen to GM's own engineers if you don't believe me. One of the reasons (among several) the C7 kept a large V8 instead of having a TTV6 was a V8 with AFM provided better fuel economy than a turbo V6.
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03-10-2013, 09:16 PM | #479 | ||
I used to be Dragoneye...
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The paper-to-real world numbers isn't a related discussion, imo. I'm afraid I have to disagree with your using it as a premise for suggesting there's no increase in efficiency to be found in a 2.0L turbo. The biggest factor in converting EPA numbers to the real world is a person's right foot... The entire ATS is tuned for excitement and performance. That four banger was engineered specifically for the car - and they're billing it's credentials as the "best", or "most fun" ATS of the bunch when equipped with a manual transmission (That could be another note...the V6 is only available with an auto if memory serves). So I'm not sure it's tuned for economy over performance...at worst - a balance. I agree to disagree on the point of fuel economy...I believe real-world examples prove the T4 to be the more efficient option. Given that we believe the new Camaro will be riding on the Alpha platform like the ATS...I think we may as well go into a Caddy dealership and stare at the ATS as though it were a real, working crystal ball for Camaro's future... But let me take this conversation in a new direction for a moment...Ford is said to be putting an Ecoboost 4-banger into the new Mustang. The Genesis coupe uses a turbo 4 as ITs base engine. The new subaru and scion twins use a 4 cylinder (albeit they're TINY little vehicles...)...I think it only makes sense to have Camaro enter than field with a superior engine (& car as a whole)...at worst it means they'll sell more! If they don't...that mere fact could be exploited as a "weakness", or "GM's behind the times", etc.... If they build it...I believe it will sell in today's market. It's: > Inexpensive (if trimmed as a base car) > Fun (loads of torque) > Efficient (31mpg + based on ATS numbers) > and "it has a Turbo"!! (I am a little shocked at how much weight that little component carries with buyers..) I believe the title of this thread reflects many enthusiasts inability to see past unadulterated performance (not a bad thing, just an observation)....instead of "why would anyone want it", I would ask: "Why not build it"? After all - nobodies forcing us performance junkies to buy it. |
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03-10-2013, 09:19 PM | #480 |
Drives: 2006 Silverado SS, 2009 G8 GT Join Date: Aug 2008
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03-10-2013, 09:27 PM | #481 | |
I used to be Dragoneye...
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I know the new LT-1 is supposed to impress us all with its efficiency (not being facetious on this point - I LOVE this new small block...)...but I don't recall ever hearing them say mpg was the reason for not doing a TTV6. I remember Tadge Juechter saying that a V6 wasn't right for the car...and that it didn't provide the performance they wanted...but never that it couldn't provide the efficiency. |
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03-10-2013, 10:05 PM | #482 | |
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03-10-2013, 10:44 PM | #483 |
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Pardon the interruption...lol...but just a "dumb" question perhaps...Why is the 2.0 ltr the one that gets the turbo?...Why not a turbo on the 2.5?...wouldn't that be more fun, better performance, better mileage?
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03-10-2013, 10:51 PM | #484 |
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A common mistake people make is they look at increased fuel economy as "found money". It's not, and it's pretty insignificant in the scheme of things. (And may end up being an actual negative investment).
Let's take the cadillac ATS discussed above as an example. I will round the numbers to make the math easier. If the 2.0T makes 33MPG, it will use 3030 gallons of fuel to go 100K miles. If the 3.6 makes 30MPG, it will use 3333 gallons of fuel to go 100K miles. For all those big economy numbers (an awesome 3 more MPGS) you save 303 gallons over 100,000 miles. That means if gas costs $4.00 a gallon, you saved $1,212 over the 100,000 miles. My contention is that it costs the consumer MORE than $1212 in the increased price of the car to make those 3MPGs than the consumer actually saves by driving the car. According to the "build your own" for the Cadillac ATS the base prices are: 2.5 = MSRP Starting at $33,990 2.0T = MSRP Starting at $35,795 As far as I can tell comparing the trim levels, the 2.5 and 2.0T models are equipped the same except for the engine, so we can see that adding a turbo raises the price of an an I4 engine by ($35,795 - $33,990) = $1,805! I can't directly compare the V6 model to the 2.0T because they obscure the price of the V6 engine by adding a boatload of extra options to the base V6 trim level, but I would guess that the V6 engine is more than $1,212 less than the 2.0T. So, people pay up front for what they think is a huge savings in fuel economy, when the real world shows that they actually pay more up front for an efficient car over what they would spend over the life of the vehicle that has the less efficent but more affordable engine. Once you add in the interest the buyer pays on the higher priced "efficient" engine, versus the interest earned by banking that money and paying it over time for slightly more fuel... well the results are even more skewed. So, all the arguments being made for the I4T Camaro because it saves fuel are pretty much non starters. GM could build a really nice basic V8 Camaro for a really nice low price, and it would be an awesome platform to mod because it would be so inexpensive. People interested in saving gas could be encouraged to run the figures and see for themselves that paying up front for fuel savings is costing them money. They would then jump at the chance to get a V8 Camaro with no fuel "stigma" clouding their judgement. It's a win-win! |
03-10-2013, 10:57 PM | #485 | |
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03-10-2013, 11:13 PM | #486 | |
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Premium averages about $0.30 more per gallon, so the 2.0T costs $13,029 to go 100K miles. and the V6 costs $13,332 to travel 100K miles. Over the life of the car, you will save $303 in gas by deciding to go with the $1,805 extra for the turbo engine to save money on gas! A.w.e.s.o.m.e. Does anyone else see this is a problem? |
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03-11-2013, 12:01 AM | #487 | |
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03-11-2013, 01:39 AM | #488 | |||
Drives: 2016 Mazda6, 2011 Mustang 5.0 Join Date: Mar 2010
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Based on test results I've read, in real world driving (not the EPA cycle) the 1.4L Turbo Cruze does no better than the 1.8L N/A Cruze, and by a lot of accounts, falls short of larger, more powerful N/A engines from Ford and Mazda. Quote:
Fun? I'll give you that to an extent, they do tend to produce more torque. But, the 2.0T produces only the same torque as the NA V6, and less horsepower. And as I said earlier, a lot of people, particularly sports car fans, prefer the characteristics of a N/A engine. Efficient? If 31 is the expected number, the V6 in the Camaro already gets 30. The move to the smaller, lighter platform alone will bring that to at least 31. And the V6 will run on regular. So where is the benefit? As for the last point, the reason many fear turbos is they all know a family member who in the 80s had a turbo and had to take out a second mortgage to replace the turbo. Now, I recognize that today's turbos and synthetic oils have taken care of most of the old turbo problems, but it is still a potential issue, and if it does occur, it is very expensive, and a marginal economy increase is not worth the risk. The same can be said of comparing the 3.6 V6 and the 2.0T. The 3.6 has a lot more power.
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03-11-2013, 01:51 AM | #489 |
Drives: 2016 Mazda6, 2011 Mustang 5.0 Join Date: Mar 2010
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To possibly expand on this discussion a bit, maybe we could take this in a bit of a different direction.
What we basically disagree on most from a technical point of view is that with two engines that have the same power output, there won't be much if any difference efficiency wise from a NA engine and a "smaller" displacement turbo engine. However, many here think a smaller turbo engine can make the same power as a N/A engine while using less fuel. Perhaps it could add more to the discussion if you explained scientifically why you think that is the case. Maybe I'll see the light and learn something, and maybe I'll rebut you. (And don't cite EPA ratings, because those are not an explanation of why).
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03-11-2013, 01:53 AM | #490 | |
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To get better fuel economy duh!
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1100 Order accepted at dealer: 9/15/2009 - NPGV41. 2000 Order accepted by GM: 9/29/2009 3000 Accepted By Production Control: 9/30/2009 - TPW 10/26/09 3100 Sequenced:10/12/09 3300 Scheduled For Production:10/13/09 3400 Broadcast:10/22/09 3800 Produced:10/27/09 4000 Available To Ship:10/28/09 4200 Shipped:10/29/09 5000 Delivered To The Dealer:11/09/09 6000 Delivered To Customer:11/12/09 |
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