[kttxz06]

MustangFanboy = thePill's offspring.

[Tractionless]

So, MT's Ignition manual ZL1 runs 1:26.15 around Willow (2.5mi). MT's Head 2 Head manual ZL1 against the GT350R ran a 1:27.90 around Willow (2.5mi). A 1.75 second difference, in the same car on the same track... wat da actual fuk happened???

[mr965]

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

I'm curious, exactly what excuses have I been making? I hear a lot of excuses and bashing from camaro folk. Quite frankly, I believe I have done nothing but credit the ZL1. I've stated my opinion on why I feel the GT350 is special.

But again, this is all fun. I take nothing personally.

I've been a Chevy fan all my driving years.

When I was 8 years old I was infatuated with the release of the Boss302. The new GT350R looks the closest to the original Boss302. I was very interested until I could only buy one at a ridiculous dealer mark up.

Then I found a dealer with Zl1 allocation available without markup. I jumped on it and got the badass ZL1. I love the car and do have complaints with the quality of Chevy and Ford dealership customer service.

I do look forward to competing against normal track drivers and kicking their butts on the track in matching ZL1's, GT350R's, various Porsches and any other cars thinking they're badasses and want a challenge

[Mustang Fanboy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

4 tenths is an ass kicking bro. That is a lot of time to make up.



All Ford does is they take a GT, throw a few badges and some other BS on it, do something to free up an extra 5-15 hp, and then call it a "Bullitt". Or they take an older Cobra engine and tweak it a little and call it a "Mach 1" like they did in 03. Or they just throw badges on it and do nothing else like they did with the S197 Mach1 and Bullitt. And their fans clap and say "hooray I paid an extra $10,000 for a re-badged GT thanks Ford". They had the Boss 302 and that was it. Everything else was a gimmick. And at this point Chevy doesn't even need the Z28 considering how well the ZL1 did and that the even better ZL1 1LE is coming out. All the special names in the world ain't gonna help the Mustang at this point.



What loss am I taking? The only thing that mattered to me is who beat who on the track. I often disagree with just about the majority of what MT says subjectively anyway. Hey they can make the Mustang the car of the year for the next few decades. I won't care. Show me the results. And there is nothing special about that dang engine that you keep praising. Nothing at all. It is wiped out and completely underpowered and completely underwhelming by today's standards. It is 2017 and the fastest Mustang costs over $60K and runs a 12.2 in the quarter and makes 526hp and 429 tq and you're sitting here calling THAT "special". In 2017? Bro you are out of your mind. 5 years ago that might have been pretty cool. But now that is really weak from a performance car. So exactly what is soo good about the GT350R when it is losing to it's competition in everything?

Ford give it's customers exactly what they want. Mustang people eat up the special editions. It's a smart move really by Ford.

As for the fastest mustang running 12.2 in the 1/4 mile....it's not a drag queen. Everyone but you seems to know this. It wasn't meant for the dragstrip.

Keep on venting at the loss, I'll be your shoulder to cry on.

Originally Posted by 2SS 1LE

Is it just me of did fanboy say a average middle class family can afford a GT35OR? Am I the only one that finds that delusional?

Based off of MSRP, yes....that is unless the middle class no-longer buys SUVs (that are priced up there too). Now can the lower middle class swing it? Nope.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Excuse #1 - "They're not natural competitors"

Excuse #2 - "The ZL1 has 124 more hp and 221 more tq"

Excuse #3 - "The GT500 is gonna come out..."

Excuse #4 - An oldie. "the trap speed". The GT350 is an 11 sec car if it only had the right driver.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Really you praising the Voodoo engine is getting a little dreamy. Compared to your traditional 6000-7000 RPM small block that most muscle cars have, yes it's different or "special"...But for a flat plane crank, it is far from it. All the european flat planes from Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren rev to at least 9,000...And quite a few are even higher. 8200 RPM with all the power from 5500 up is not impressive. Why don't you go look up the 458 engine's dyno numbers and see how they were able to make power in a much more special way and still rev to 9000+ RPM. The 458 holds the record for HP per liter in a production car.

Ford in my book, kind of half assed the voodoo with too big of displacement which caused them to make it rev slower (due to the heavier crank and what not) (Now you're back to standard small block revs, you heard them say the LT4 revs/responds faster), plus they couldn't fit the dual intakes like Flat planes should have, and gave it the different length headers which made it not sound like a flat plane at all. So in my book, special for a MUSTANG? Yes, sure, maybe. Special in the world of Flat plane crank engines? Not even close.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd dissagree here. Remember the Voodoo is only a 5.2L motor and it is producing 526-hp, in comparison Chevy's 6.2L making 455, and Dodge's 6.4L making 485. I think that the little Ford could be considered special even though it lacks the appropriate torque. Another 50-lbs of torque in this motor would make all the differance in the world.

This being said everyone in this forum fully expected the ZL1 to trounce the 350R and it didn't happen, same way they expected it to trounce the Hellcat which also didn't happen. It is a fantastic car and the best dollar value out there presently but it sure didn't run away from the competition as most had expected.

[ZL1 1LE]

Originally Posted by unavailablezl1

True, or it maybe him

Nah, he doesn't refer to himself in the 3rd person but, that broken record...

[unavailablezl1]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Really you praising the Voodoo engine is getting a little dreamy. Compared to your traditional 6000-7000 RPM small block that most muscle cars have, yes it's different or "special"...But for a flat plane crank, it is far from it. All the european flat planes from Porsche/Ferrari/Lamborghini/McLaren rev to at least 9,000...And quite a few are even higher. 8200 RPM with all the power from 5500 up is not impressive. Why don't you go look up the 458 engine's dyno numbers and see how they were able to make power in a much more special way and still rev to 9000+ RPM. The 458 holds the record for HP per liter in a production car.

Ford in my book, kind of half assed the voodoo with too big of displacement which caused them to make it rev slower (due to the heavier crank and what not) (Now you're back to standard small block revs, you heard them say the LT4 revs/responds faster), plus they couldn't fit the dual intakes like Flat planes should have, and gave it the different length headers which made it not sound like a flat plane at all. So in my book, special for a MUSTANG? Yes, sure, maybe. Special in the world of Flat plane crank engines? Not even close.

For me, the BMW E9* V8 is much more special than the Voodoo. It is so smooth, you can't feel it running. It revs to 8* grand much faster; almost instantaneous. It has a throttle body per cylinder.

Very special motor. The Voodoo can't touch it.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

This being said everyone in this forum fully expected the ZL1 to trounce the 350R and it didn't happen, same way they expected it to trounce the Hellcat which also didn't happen. It is a fantastic car and the best dollar value out there presently but it sure didn't run away from the competition as most had expected.

You do understand that 0.39 seconds is a pretty significant beating right?? 4 tenths is a lot to make up for and shows how far behind the GT350R really is.

Originally Posted by Mustang Fanboy

Ford give it's customers exactly what they want. Mustang people eat up the special editions. It's a smart move really by Ford.

As for the fastest mustang running 12.2 in the 1/4 mile....it's not a drag queen. Everyone but you seems to know this. It wasn't meant for the dragstrip.

Keep on venting at the loss, I'll be your shoulder to cry on.

Its a smart move by Ford alright...re-badge a GT, claim it has an extra 5hp, charge $10K more for it, and let the idiots eat it up. Yea I agree it is a very smart move on Ford's part and shows just how stupid anyone who buys that crap really is.

And you do really have an excuse for everything. The fastest Mustang in 2017 costs over $60K and runs a 12.2 and your excuse is that it isn't a 1/4 mile car, it's built for the track. Ok so it gets it's ass kicked by a ZL1 which you claim is built and tuned for the track and your excuse is that the ZL1 isn't it's natural competitor. Ok so the GT350R couldn't beat the track time of the Camaro SS 1LE and your excuse is that it was on a different day. You are full of excuses and you're trying to defend that $60+K loser. If the ZL1 isn't the natural competitor then you wouldn't need the excuse that the GT350 is greatly underpowered. And your excuse for Mustangs being slower now than they were 6 years ago is that Ford relies on the aftermarket. You Mustang guys just have lots of excuses for losing don't ya?

Plus that actually speaks volumes to just how weak the Mustang really is when it can't beat a Camaro that costs the same as it does at anything, even something they both apparently were designed for. And it can't beat an old time by a Camaro that costs $30K less. And it is barely 2 tenths of a second faster than that same Camaro that costs 30 Gs less. So maybe instead of trying to call out the ZL1 for having an enormous hp/tq advantage, you should be wondering why at the same price does such a significant difference between the 2 exist. Or why at the same price a Mustang that was built for the track can't beat the top Camaro at anything. And MAYBE, instead of trying to build a "special" engine, Ford should have been coming up with something a little more practical and a little less expensive that would have allowed the GT350R to do better on the track. What good is a special engine and a car tuned for the track if it can't beat anything?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Excuse #4 - An oldie. "the trap speed". The GT350 is an 11 sec car if it only had the right driver.

Excuse #5 - It does only a 12.2 because it isn't a quarter mile car

Excuse #6 - (Why the 1SS 1LE matched the GT350R's time)...It wasn't on the same day.

Excuse #7 - Ford relies heavily on the aftermarket

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'd dissagree here. Remember the Voodoo is only a 5.2L motor and it is producing 526-hp, in comparison Chevy's 6.2L making 455, and Dodge's 6.4L making 485. I think that the little Ford could be considered special even though it lacks the appropriate torque. Another 50-lbs of torque in this motor would make all the differance in the world.

You're not considering that...

HP = (Torque x RPM)/5252

The Voodoo's power is a result of engine speed and is why it is weak from a start. The Chevy and Dodge engines make rich power over the entire RPM range because they have torque (i.e. displacement).

Originally Posted by newmoon

This being said everyone in this forum fully expected the ZL1 to trounce the 350R and it didn't happen, same way they expected it to trounce the Hellcat which also didn't happen. It is a fantastic car and the best dollar value out there presently but it sure didn't run away from the competition as most had expected.

I disagree with your point here also. It was not a given that the ZL1 would run away and if you look at early posts here, that sentiment was commonly expressed. In the short history of these type of domestic cars, the lighter, less powerful, track focused car always won. The Alpha platform, at all levels, is SO good that expectations were high.

Below is my April 21 post to shaffe on this topic. Look back and you will see it is common.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I disagree. In the last generation, the lighter, naturally aspirated Boss 302 and Z/28 were faster than the more powerful GT500 and ZL1. The GT350R weighs 276 lbs less (3,650 vs 3,926 lbs) and has carbon-fiber wheels that remove 16 lbs of unsprung weight at each corner. If the ZL1 post a faster lap it will be a major accomplishment.

The GT350R is special with a chassis designed specifically for the Mustang with a track specific FPC engine, etc. The ZL1 is a bottom breathing parts bin car built on a sedan chassis with a band aided LT4 engine.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford/mustang/2016/2016-ford-shelby-gt350r-mustang-first-drive-review/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...e-squad-goals/

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by newmoon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd dissagree here. Remember the Voodoo is only a 5.2L motor and it is producing 526-hp, in comparison Chevy's 6.2L making 455, and Dodge's 6.4L making 485. I think that the little Ford could be considered special even though it lacks the appropriate torque. Another 50-lbs of torque in this motor would make all the differance in the world.

This being said everyone in this forum fully expected the ZL1 to trounce the 350R and it didn't happen, same way they expected it to trounce the Hellcat which also didn't happen. It is a fantastic car and the best dollar value out there presently but it sure didn't run away from the competition as most had expected.

You can't compare a FPC, 4 valve engine to a CPC 2 valve engine. The Voodoo should make more power per liter. Ford had no choice but to go FPC, if they were going to hit the power levels they wanted. The fact is the Voodoo is as much a compromised engine as the LT4. The crankshaft isn't much lighter than the Coyote crank. The firing order isn't optimal, due to the single plenum intake manifold and the thing is prone to eating oil pump gears.

[KenB925]

Originally Posted by newmoon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd dissagree here. Remember the Voodoo is only a 5.2L motor and it is producing 526-hp, in comparison Chevy's 6.2L making 455, and Dodge's 6.4L making 485. I think that the little Ford could be considered special even though it lacks the appropriate torque. Another 50-lbs of torque in this motor would make all the differance in the world.

This being said everyone in this forum fully expected the ZL1 to trounce the 350R and it didn't happen, same way they expected it to trounce the Hellcat which also didn't happen. It is a fantastic car and the best dollar value out there presently but it sure didn't run away from the competition as most had expected.

These cars are at such a high level from the SS 1LE on up that i don't think we are going to see huge ass kickings anymore, we will see one car is a little faster here another is a little faster there, and you can make your choice.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by KenB925

These cars are at such a high level from the SS 1LE on up that i don't think we are going to see huge ass kickings anymore, we will see one car is a little faster here another is a little faster there, and you can make your choice.

I tend to agree with this point.

But, as someone mentioned earlier, .4 of a second over say, a 20-30 lap race. That's a beat down. Over a one lap hot lap and it doesn't sound so bad.