[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

My question is this...why is Ford constantly backing down? They have no problem posting when the Mustang does a good quarter mile time. Yet they have these weird statements when it comes to the track. Meanwhile Chevy puts their cars out there to be tested.

In response to everyone thinking Ford isn't serious because they don't pursue breaking records at Nurburgring or VIR - Ferrari and McLaren don't post track times nor try to lay claim to breaking records at Nurburgring or VIR. I guess they aren't players in the performance car realm, right?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Actually, yes. You did miss something. It's called the '11/'12 GT500. I noticed that you keep conveniently forgetting that car in your lists. In fact, your hardcore fanboy-ism is what "forced" me to even sign up just so I could respond to it.


You forget that the Mustang is the first and original pony car. It will NEVER have to "answer to" any other car in the segment. Now, with that out of the way, what was Chevy's answer to:


'03 Cobra?
'05 Mustang GT?
'07 Mustang Bullitt?
'07 GT500?
'08 GT500KR?
'10 GT500?


If the Mustang is always "answering to" the Camaro, where was the Camaro from '03 - '09? What possible reason would Ford have had to make so many updates to the Mustang during a time when the Camaro didn't even exist, except in wishful thoughts?


Now let's go back to the '11/'12 GT500 for a minute. You claim that Ford had to "answer to" the '12 ZL1 with the '13 GT500. You couldn't be more wrong nor disingenuous. The '12 ZL1 was answering to the '11/'12 GT500. And even then, it only matched the GT500 in most performance metrics, and even the Boss 302 could best the ZL1 on a track. To add insult to injury, Ford dropped the '13 GT500 almost specifically just to dip their balls into Chevy's mouth when Chevy announced the '12 ZL1.


Now enter the Z28. The Z28 was a badass car that took the world by storm. It embarrassed ALL of the pony cars around a track, including the ZL1 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca. But, it came at the end of the 5th gen's run and the Mustang S197 program was already shutting down. So there was no chance of an S197 rival, even though the Z28 was actually answering to the Boss 302 Laguna Seca which was already out of production when the Z28 arrived.



Skip ahead a couple years to the Mustang S550. Ford shocks the world with the GT350 and GT350R. Chevy is pretty much caught flatfooted and doesn't even try to make a direct competitor. No, the ZL1 and ZL1 1LE are not direct competitors to the GT350s. That said, data show that neither of the ZL1s are appreciably better than the GT350R in the handling department. The deltas between HP/TRQ and track times bear that out. Look at the VIR times of each. Even with the ZL1 1LE's power advantage and supposedly superior suspension setup, there's "only" a 6 second difference between them. Yes, I know 6 seconds on a track is a LONG time! However, on a track like VIR that rewards big power, you would think the ZL1 1LE would be much further ahead. Now look at a more technical track like Laguna Seca. All that power and tech on the ZL1 1LE netted a whopping 1.81 second advantage over the GT350R. The standard ZL1 was a whole 0.9 second faster. That should let you know the GT350R is a better handler. And then there's this:





Notice which one finished first.



Now fast forward a few more years. Enter the GT500. The lead engineer pretty much specifically stated the GT500 had to answer to the GT350R. His actual words were "It had to be at least as good as the GT350R." We can infer that he was talking about the handling. So imagine the GT350R with another 200HP that it's been (re)engineered to harness. You'd have to be the biggest fanboy in the world to even remotely believe the GT500 isn't going to smash the ZL1 1LE.




Now, with ALL THAT said, I'm not here to bash or fight. I just couldn't take your disingenuous fanboy-ism anymore. I get that you love your car. There's a lot to love about it. But sheesh! Take it down a notch or two or three. I actually like BOTH the Mustang and Camaro, even the latest update to the Camaro which seems to be almost universally derided. I think it looks sharp (especially in that bright green color), but that's apparently just me. I actually dislike the '18 Mustang update very much. I actually don't like the S550, in general, except for the GT350s. Those are hot.

I already pointed out the earlier GT500s as well..his response was that the ZL1 was purposely introduced two years after the re-introduction of the Camaro (as if it wasn't a response to the '11 GT500). Oh hum.

What's funny is I literally grew up a Chevy/Camaro guy, having owned previous f-bodies, my Dad owned a '69 Vette, '65 hot rodded Nova coupe, and he currently owns a Gen 5 Camaro SS that is a sweet ride. I always bashed the Mustang as being slow, etc., but the '18 GT is so darn good IMO for what I want it to do that it won me over (see my previous post describing why) and I bought one in November and I haven't looked back since!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Did you guys not read the article or did you just look at the headline? Nothing in the article comes off as its a straight line car only.

Many automakers—including Chevrolet and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles—have made the Nürburgring-Nordschleife the lap time benchmark, but it's not in the plan for the Shelby GT500 according to Widmann.

"It's not a benchmark for Ford," he said

"The boss of Ford Performance did say that the automaker will likely give a GT500 to Car and Driver for the publication's annual Lightning Lap test at Virginia International Raceway, and a lap time would be published from that test.

Ford's lack of interest on chasing lap times with the 2020 Mustang Shelby GT500 comes as no surprise, it took the same stance with its GT supercar."

If the car was going to be a straightline car only, they would not be offeringe a track pack with adjustable suspension bits, super sticky tires, super aggressive aero and rear seat delete.

All this article did was confirm that Ford is not changing its stance, that it doesn't use lap times as a benchmark/advertising tool

Read the article and got it! The GT500 is based on the GT350 and then powered/optioned up...

GT500 Carbon Fiber Track Pack:
- 20-inch exposed carbon fiber wheels
- Adjustable strut top mounts
- Exposed carbon fiber instrument panel
- Exposed carbon fiber GT4 track wing
- Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Tires - 305/30R20 front, 315/30R20 rear
- Rear seat delete

With in excess of 100 HP (est) over the ZL1 1LE, the GT500 Track Package will slaughter the ZLE according to reasoning used with the GT350R vs ZL1 head to head.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

With in excess of 100 HP (est) over the ZL1 1LE, the GT500 Track Package will slaughter the ZLE according to reasoning used with the GT350R vs ZL1 head to head.

Are we talking about the 6017 GT500? Because if what what you just posted actually happens Jonny Lieberman is gonna have some splain'n to do.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I already pointed out the earlier GT500s as well..his response was that the ZL1 was purposely introduced two years after the re-introduction of the Camaro (as if it wasn't a response to the '11 GT500). Oh hum.

What's funny is I literally grew up a Chevy/Camaro guy, having owned previous f-bodies, my Dad owned a '69 Vette, '65 hot rodded Nova coupe, and he currently owns a Gen 5 Camaro SS that is a sweet ride. I always bashed the Mustang as being slow, etc., but the '18 GT is so darn good IMO for what I want it to do that it won me over (see my previous post describing why) and I bought one in November and I haven't looked back since!

That wasn't my reply. You twisted what I said. Now if you wanna have an intelligent conversation then I'll gladly do so. If you don't like what I have to say then fine. But at least be mature and stop trying to twist things and put words in my mouth.

I said it has been typical to introduce the higher up models a year or so later. Chevy did that with the 5th Gen, and then they did it with the 6th Gen. Did they not? They also did it with the C6 Vettes and then the C7 Vettes. Did they not? That seems to be their trend and that is what I noted. Just like it is their trend to not make any changes during the Gen as we have seen. They went that route with the 5th and 6th Gen Camaros and again, with the C6 and C7 Vettes. Did they not?

Sure the 10 and 11 GT500 were out before the 12 ZL1. When it arrived it had 580 HP to the GT500's 550 HP. Ford obviously felt the need to answer to the ZL1's higher output by making a massive jump to 663. Just like they had to respond to the 2010 SS by making a massive jump to 411 HP in 2011. Nowhere else in history has Ford ever had to make such massive jumps. They had to when the Camaro showed up. Did GM respond to any of that? No. They went ahead with the Z28 and then moved on to the 6th Gen. Now again, the GT had to make massive changes in 2018 and the GT500 is coming back. So who is answering to who? If anything Ford is the one playing catch up while GM makes a product and moves on. This is the 4th time in the past decade that Ford has had to do something major just to keep up with the Camaro. So again, who is answering to who?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Are we talking about the 6017 GT500? Because if what what you just posted actually happens Jonny Lieberman is gonna have some splain'n to do.

In the GT350R vs ZL1, the non-1LE ZL1 beat the R solely due to its power advantage. Technically, using M6G logic, the regular GT500 should beat the ZLE with its power advantage and GT350 based underpinnings.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

In response to everyone thinking Ford isn't serious because they don't pursue breaking records at Nurburgring or VIR - Ferrari and McLaren don't post track times nor try to lay claim to breaking records at Nurburgring or VIR. I guess they aren't players in the performance car realm, right?

We aren't talking about McLaren or Ferrari now are we? We're talking about the GT500 vs it's competitor, the ZL1, in what is going to be a heated contest. And right in the thick of it Ford backs out. That is coward AF if you ask me. If I were a Mustang fan and had been waiting all these years for an answer to the almighty ZL1 and then Ford finally builds something but goes back and pulled a statement like that out of their ass I'b be fuming.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

We aren't talking about McLaren or Ferrari now are we? We're talking about the GT500 vs it's competitor, the ZL1, in what is going to be a heated contest. And right in the thick of it Ford backs out. That is coward AF if you ask me. If I were a Mustang fan and had been waiting all these years for an answer to the almighty ZL1 and then Ford finally builds something but goes back and pulled a statement like that out of their ass I'b be fuming.

Ford has stated this time and time again, it's nothing new from them. Nurburgring lap times are horseshit due to the number of variables in track conditions and the fact that manufacturers cheat constantly. The car will be tested by 3rd party at VIR and LS by C&D and Randy.

[collinms]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Ford has stated this time and time again, it's nothing new from them. Nurburgring lap times are horseshit due to the number of variables in track conditions and the fact that manufacturers cheat constantly. The car will be tested by 3rd party at VIR and LS by C&D and Randy.

Lol, sounds like denial to me. It's literally a way to benchmark the car VS all other performance cars. There is a reason almost all performance cars are developed on that track. You can't just deny that because it fits your narrative.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Ford has stated this time and time again, it's nothing new from them. Nurburgring lap times are horseshit due to the number of variables in track conditions and the fact that manufacturers cheat constantly. The car will be tested by 3rd party at VIR and LS by C&D and Randy.

Right. So they invest all this money and 6 years of time building the car but they don't care about track times?? But it's funny how they spout how fast it is in the quarter mile. To me that means they know it isn't gonna beat the ZLE and are already looking for an excuse for the brutal beating it will most certainly receive.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That wasn't my reply. You twisted what I said. Now if you wanna have an intelligent conversation then I'll gladly do so. If you don't like what I have to say then fine. But at least be mature and stop trying to twist things and put words in my mouth.

I said it has been typical to introduce the higher up models a year or so later. Chevy did that with the 5th Gen, and then they did it with the 6th Gen. Did they not? They also did it with the C6 Vettes and then the C7 Vettes. Did they not? That seems to be their trend and that is what I noted. Just like it is their trend to not make any changes during the Gen as we have seen. They went that route with the 5th and 6th Gen Camaros and again, with the C6 and C7 Vettes. Did they not?

Sure the 10 and 11 GT500 were out before the 12 ZL1. When it arrived it had 580 HP to the GT500's 550 HP. Ford obviously felt the need to answer to the ZL1's higher output by making a massive jump to 663. Just like they had to respond to the 2010 SS by making a massive jump to 411 HP in 2011. Nowhere else in history has Ford ever had to make such massive jumps. They had to when the Camaro showed up. Did GM respond to any of that? No. They went ahead with the Z28 and then moved on to the 6th Gen. Now again, the GT had to make massive changes in 2018 and the GT500 is coming back. So who is answering to who? If anything Ford is the one playing catch up while GM makes a product and moves on. This is the 4th time in the past decade that Ford has had to do something major just to keep up with the Camaro. So again, who is answering to who?

I summarized what your reply was, I didn't twist any words. You said they introduce the upgraded version 1 or 2 years after the introduction of the generation. There's another sum up. Anyway, yes, Ford has had to answer to the Camaro increases. But you're in denial, still, because at the same time GM has had to answer to the Mustang improvements, and I have given very specific examples, yet you still can't see it, so how can this be an intelligent conversation? It's not one sided, both sides have had to answer to a previous version:

2010 SS - Ford answered with 412 hp 2011 Gen 1 Coyote (slightly short on power compared to the SS)
2011 GT500 (answer to nothing - Ford just put out a very powerful car even thought the top SS was 426 hp) - Chevy answered with 30 more hp 2012 ZL1
Boss 302 LS track package - my understanding is Chevy answered with the Z28
2012 Z28 - Ford answered with the GT350R
2013 GT500 - Ford's answer to the 2012 ZL1. Chevy basically had NO answer to this 662 hp monster. Until, 4 years later...
2016 GT350R - Chevy answers with 2017 ZL1 - Chevy's answer to the 2013 GT500 and the GT350R (power, handling). Chevy's attempt to kill two birds with one stone, although they didn't kill the acceleration part of the GT500 even though they had 4 years to do so, and the ZL1 had a lot more power so it was slightly faster than the GT350R around a track. GT350R is no doubt a serious handling car, as is the ZL1 (and later esp. the ZLE).
2015 Mustang GT - 435 hp (slightly more power than the 2015 SS) and new design; Chevy responded with the 2016 Gen 6 SS with 455 hp.
Gen 6 SS - Ford answers with 2018 Mustang GT PP1, then later PP2, answer to the SS 1LE.
2018 ZLE - Ford answers with the 2020 GT500 (with track package)
2020 GT500 - Chevy must answer....?

There's several cars Camaro has had to answer to: 2011 GT500, Boss 302 LS, 2013 GT500, 2015 Mustang GT (whether you believe it or not), 2016 GT350R, and now the 2020 GT500 (wait and see, but my guess is Chevy will have to answer). They are taking turns, if you couldn't tell. That's how competition works.

To be fair, Ford has had to answer to the 2010 SS, 2012 ZL1, 2014 Z28, Gen 6 SS, and ZL1/ZLE.

How you think Chevy never has to answer to what Ford does is beyond me, with the above examples clearly given.

[mlee]

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by collinms

Lol, sounds like denial to me. It's literally a way to benchmark the car VS all other performance cars. There is a reason almost all performance cars are developed on that track. You can't just deny that because it fits your narrative.

Deny what? I'm pretty sure the GT500 was developed at the ring. Has nothing to do with Ford not posting lap times.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Right. So they invest all this money and 6 years of time building the car but they don't care about track times?? But it's funny how they spout how fast it is in the quarter mile. To me that means they know it isn't gonna beat the ZLE and are already looking for an excuse for the brutal beating it will most certainly receive.

That's correct. When the 350R beat the Z28 by 5 seconds at the ring back in 2015 Ford said nothing and if the GT500 beats the ZL1 they will say nothing.

Did I miss official Ring times for the C7 Z06?

[jvandy50]

It’s been stated on SVTP by a good source(DBK) the track pack will outdo a ZLE on a road course...now, it wasn’t stated which course, and by how much...but it was said. For some reason i feel like it could’ve been VIR since they’ve already volunteered one for that lightning lap...just guessing though.

Honestly, i wouldn’t believe it had it not been typed by that particular poster. The ZLE is a freaking track monster.

And obviously this’ll come down to the better driver more times than not. I do wish they’d use the Ring because i simply enjoy the videos that come out of that testing, but never been ford’s style.