[triggerjerk]

Honestly, what makes you think Chevrolet wants to sell Camaros?
No advertising. No incentives. No meaningful updates.

You know they would rather spend money on an urban crossover they can market to women.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

Dodge outmarkets Chevy again...

Originally Posted by shaffe

Clever marketing sale by Dodge

Sorry, but if you think the messaging of "my car is selling so badly I'm willing to put cash on the hood to get you to consider it" is clever marketing or better marketing than GM, you might want to re evaluate that.

[enzia35]

Originally Posted by Gadsden

I got $7k in rebates off of my '19 1SS, which only makes 455hp, so isn't that a better deal?

Yes, by 50%. $15 off per hp.

[KMPrenger]

Its a cool twist on a way to sell performance vehicles, but its really no better than any of the deals you can get on a Camaro right now. I don't think it would be difficult at all to get $4,550 off MSRP on a Camaro SS right now.

Heck, we've seen much bigger sales than that over the past few years.

[CamaroSS50]

Excellent campaign.

Puts horsepower to dollars.

Gives them the perception Dodge is the king of horsepower.

Well done

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by 302Blue

So you have a point, luxury products and in some part sports cars don't sell on reliability, any economics class would tell you that they don't follow the same rules as they're passion purchases. And obviously your original comment was supposed to be a sarcastic joke that somehow got taken seriously, but if you're going to argue about reliability your source should at least be reliable too so two things real quick:

1) JD Power is a marketing firm. There is no such thing as objectivity if they're selling their services. In that example Lexus is at the top but generally speaking a company's normal cars can have better reliability than their luxury ones as luxury cars have more cutting-edge bells and whistles on them that can go wrong over time. I'm not actually saying Lexus isn't the most reliable, they could easily just test and engineer well enough to ensure those things never go wrong, but I find the gap between Toyota and Lexus suspicious. Like you said, people don't care as much about reliability on luxury goods so shouldn't Toyota (where people would care more) at least be right behind, if not equal to, Lexus? And Kia, Hyundai, Infiniti, Nissan, BMW, Chevy, & Lincoln are all above Honda? Believing that for a second, it shouldn't be so simple to call the BMW more dependable if a BMW repair is in the thousands and the same Honda repair is a couple hundred bucks max. That's a bit misleading. Point is, JD Power could easily be a Yelp-type fishiness where if a company doesn't pay them for "marketing" then they just so happen to end up lower on these "independent" studies. Even so, I'd have no way of actually checking any of this here because there's no time range specified and this ranking would obviously fluctuate over different periods.

2) That chart itself has a blatant issue imo: "Problems per 100" That either implies a sample size of 100 which is obviously horrible and would cause immense variation depending on which 100 cars are surveyed. Or it's just a bad way to show the measure of data since it should never be per vehicle or per 100, but overall as a brand. Out of let's say two groups of ten cars, which group would you rather buy from - Group A) where a lemon car went in for different problems 8 times vs. Group B) where 7 cars went in for the same problem? Because in this rating system, the Group with the lemon would be less reliable overall, even if all the other 9 cars were perfect. Now, I'm no expert in statistics, but a more accurate measurement would need to be spread out over a brand's line-up. It would also account for re-occurring/popular issues, not simply how many issues occur per car. Maybe they did actually measure it that way for this study, but judging by this chart I would highly doubt it.

Yeah, I just got a pet peeve about crappy sources, even when you're right. Especially in today's world.

PPH is one of a couple of industry standards for statistically representing the number of issues your customer are having.

PPH is one that GM uses internally but they also use IPTV, Incidents Per Thousand Vehicles.

We use R/1000 or issues per thousand trucks.

So internal warranty evaluations use basically the same stuff as JDP.

Pharma uses PPM or problems per million, which you really want in your drugs.

Thousands of customers are surveyed for JDP.

There are others e.g. mean miles between failures, but defining issue this way with statistics is the industry norm.

Yes, there are issues with JDP, but generally it's comparable number.

The big thing to look for, and I don't think it exists anymore is two similar cars with wildly different results. For example years ago Buick had the Century with a bench seat and column shift and the Regal with bucket seats and a console shifter. Both built on the same body in the same plant by the same workers using mostly the same parts. The Century always did way better in JDP simply because of the customer base doing the evaluating.

There is a lingering belief that Toyota/Lexus did so well in years past that because people bought the car because it was supposed to be high quality so it was evaluated with that mind set. "Yes I have issues with my Toyota but it would probably be a lot worse if I had bought American".

Also, you are in line with my beliefs in that Luxury cars are about the experience, not the issues. One of the worst quality cars I owned was by Audi S4. Major issues, but they treated me so well they were very forgettable. I always got a loaner of equal or greater price than my car. Our Cadillac dealer is the same. Easy automatic loaner for even an oil change. Actually my Chevy SS was close. Lots of nit picky repairs but they always did well by me other than the automatic loaner.

[cellsafemode]

considering that most people can't tell the difference between a 5th gen and a 6th gen, i think focussing on the minutia of the frontend of the 2019 is missing the mark entirely.

chevy's lineup is and has always been stupid. They have a corvette that they dont want anything else to steal thunder from and then they have the pony car competitor, the camaro, trying to compete with other manufacturers that dont have a problem making their pony car top tier. Sure, Chevy can make the camaro a beast and super fast, but they'll never market it as such because they dont want to devalue the corvette brand.

stupid stupid stupid.

[DenverTaco07]

I wonder if a Hellcat buyer is just an average joe/jane or are they a performance enthusiast who's read auto magazines (print or online) to determine that the car is right for them?

Has anyone even seen a C8 Corvette commercial on TV? and it's already "sold out". How is that possible if they haven't shown it on TV yet? Oh wait, maybe because performance car enthusiasts don't need a TV commercial, they already know whats going on through other means, magazines, forums etc.

For those who impulse buy, dealerships play a prominent role in the marketing of cars, folks walk the lots...

Not many can afford to impulse buy a Hellcat or a ZL1, even at 7K off sticker.

[Fraxum]

I got $8k off a new ZL1 by just widening my search to 200 miles. $2K of that I think was conquest incentive the rest on my negotations. But you just had to own a Japanse car to get the incentive.

But really I wouldnt buy a new ZL1. Once you drive it off the lot you flushed $10k down the drain. Some used current ZL1s are going in the high 40s. That is a better deal than a $45-50+K new SS.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Has anyone even seen a C8 Corvette commercial on TV? and it's already "sold out". How is that possible if they haven't shown it on TV yet? Oh wait, maybe because performance car enthusiasts don't need a TV commercial, they already know whats going on through other means, magazines, forums etc.

Totally different demographic for the 2 models. And, as I recall, they did advertise with teasers all year and a HUGE "reveal party".

Granted, the 5 gen got a boost from the "Transformers" movie, but that was almost 10 years ago.


The Camaro was always called "the poor man's corvette". They are doing a lousy job of marketing it to the youth who will eventually buy a Corvette vs an Acura or BMW.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

$7,9700 off a car that starts at $71,350 (MSRP) puts it squarely in the price zone of ZL1.
And you get 150 extra horse, so figure mod money on top of that to pump up the Z

You also get an extra 200 to 300 lbs more weight with the Challenger SRT included with that sales price, so modding the ZL1 is not needed. The Challenger is a damn tank when it comes to weight.


Another subject for all:

Everyone talks about how much Dodge markets the Challenger but has anyone figured out how much it cost for TV time to run the ads? When you figure the cost of each tv spot divided out per car vs GM not running Camaro ads is Dodge turning any more profit on the Challenger per quarter? While I get volume numbers are needed to justify production of a car, it also has to turn profit. If Challenger is out selling Camaro by 3000 units per quarter (based off last quarter reports) Does that justify the Ads.. I’m asking here.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

Everyone talks about how much Dodge markets the Challenger but has anyone figured out how much it cost for TV time to run the ads? When you figure the cost of each tv spot divided out per car vs GM not running Camaro ads is Dodge turning any more profit on the Challenger per quarter? While I get volume numbers are needed to justify production of a car, it also has to turn profit. If Challenger is out selling Camaro by 3000 units per quarter (based off last quarter reports) Does that justify the Ads.. I’m asking here.

Of course it works, or Dodge wouldn’t keep doing it. Also, a lot of the people who go to a Dodge showroom to look at a Challenger buy something else, so the benefit of the Challenger ads is spread among all the cars and trucks in the lineup.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

You also get an extra 200 to 300 lbs more weight with the Challenger SRT included with that sales price, so modding the ZL1 is not needed. The Challenger is a damn tank when it comes to weight.

Those tubs of lard are coming in at 45hundee. Obviously, some (most?) aren't worried about the weight. As long as they sell though....

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

Another subject for all:

Everyone talks about how much Dodge markets the Challenger but has anyone figured out how much it cost for TV time to run the ads? When you figure the cost of each tv spot divided out per car vs GM not running Camaro ads is Dodge turning any more profit on the Challenger per quarter? While I get volume numbers are needed to justify production of a car, it also has to turn profit. If Challenger is out selling Camaro by 3000 units per quarter (based off last quarter reports) Does that justify the Ads.. I’m asking here.

I agree 100%. The ad $$ might be tacked into the MSRP and push the price higher. There is a trading point though where you're increased volume overtakes the ad expense. If it costs $5 to make a widget and I sell it for $20. I make $15 each. Sell 10 a week and I put $150 in the pocket.

If I drop the price to $10 and sell 40, I make $200 (10 x 40= 400 - 5 x 40 = 200). If your local paper charges $5 for the ad to promote your sale, you're still ahead.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Memphis SS

You also get an extra 200 to 300 lbs more weight with the Challenger SRT included with that sales price, so modding the ZL1 is not needed. The Challenger is a damn tank when it comes to weight.


Another subject for all:

Everyone talks about how much Dodge markets the Challenger but has anyone figured out how much it cost for TV time to run the ads? When you figure the cost of each tv spot divided out per car vs GM not running Camaro ads is Dodge turning any more profit on the Challenger per quarter? While I get volume numbers are needed to justify production of a car, it also has to turn profit. If Challenger is out selling Camaro by 3000 units per quarter (based off last quarter reports) Does that justify the Ads.. I’m asking here.

I've been trying to make this point for years. No one wants to hear it.

Originally Posted by 50MileSmile

Of course it works, or Dodge wouldn’t keep doing it. Also, a lot of the people who go to a Dodge showroom to look at a Challenger buy something else, so the benefit of the Challenger ads is spread among all the cars and trucks in the lineup.

Ummmmm what else do they buy?

Dodge has two cars, the Journey, Durango and the Grand Caravan.

They have nothing else to advertise. Durango might be the only other relevant vehicle they have. And when they advertise the Durango it's generally the SRT from what I've seen.

I'm pretty sure folks are going to a Dodge dealer for a Challenger/Charger and walking out with a crap fest Journey.


If GM thought there was a business case for a Camaro commercial you would have seen it already. Long time ago as sales have been in the tank.

Even in a desperate swing for the fences, if they thought it would help they would have already had commercials on TV. But no one wants to believe that. Not sure why other in typical internet fashion they can simply call some one they don't know who has way more knowledge, experience and DATA, an idiot.