[Eric SS]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

There is a reason I'm starting off with Auto X instead of hitting a track day right away. Cone scuff marks are much easier to fix than a totaled car.

Very true in regards to the cone marks. You'll have a blast doing the auto-x stuff and when you do start to do track days you'll get addicted

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I'm discussing learning in an SS 1LE as an exception to the rule of big fast cars are worse to learn in. After watching that video, I would say that an SS sedan is not an exception to that rule and that particular track is probably terrible to learn on for any novice in any car.

There is a reason I'm starting off with Auto X instead of hitting a track day right away. Cone scuff marks are much easier to fix than a totaled car.

I'm telling you, I can ALWAYS tell a difference between an autox guy and someone else. While I have to work to have the autox guy unlearn a few things, they almost always have SUPERB car control skills.

Why? Well, in an autox, everyone spins out. After all, what's the worst that can happen - you hit a cone, make some smoke, and have a great story for that night. So, you push the limits every time, every corner, every slalom. And, you find out where the limits are.

Then, when the autox guy gets to a track, he knows the limits. Yes, speeds are doubled and a turn looks different than cones. But, autox guys spin out and overshoot corners a LOT less than others.

[DFW1LE]

Whether your driving a high power or lower powered car, its important to learn to drive smoothly. Doing that probably means starting at lower speeds for most, and then you can progress from there. Smooth is fast, keep that car balanced. Also, its much easier to drive a car that has been prepped for the track with a good alignment, good tires, brake pads, and a seat/harnesses that keeps you planted than one without those things. Many do start with less power, but also much less weight. I started with a kart.

[00 Trans Ram]

Originally Posted by DFW1LE

Whether your driving a high power or lower powered car, its important to learn to drive smoothly. Doing that probably means starting at lower speeds for most, and then you can progress from there. Smooth is fast, keep that car balanced. Also, its much easier to drive a car that has been prepped for the track with a good alignment, good tires, brake pads, and a seat/harnesses that keeps you planted than one without those things. Many do start with less power, but also much less weight. I started with a kart.

Kart drivers are usually the fastest new road course drivers.

[Casalino]

Iracing drivers have an advantage too haha!! I've been playing iracing a good while now. And I bought the 1LE to get into track days. I will go through the whole process. Autocross lesson, autocross, track lessons, then track day. I think it will be more than enough for me.

Believe it or not, iracing actually teaches people real skills. There was a video on youtube of someone taking a 14 or 16 year old boy, iracing winner onto a track to drive a car for the first time around it. They were stunned at how good he did for a beginner, let alone someone who never drove a car around. So if I combine everything, I think i'm headed in the right direction. I'm young, so 5-10 years from now when I'm 30. I will be in a very good spot i

[detltu]

Originally Posted by Eric SS

While I agree with you, this is the type of thinking that can get a novice into trouble on the track. Don't rely on the car to do things for you. Nannies might keep you from spinning if you come out of a corner and get on the throttle to quickly but nothing will save you if you go into a corner to hot and the car just won't turn quickly enough to keep you on the track. An off at 45mph is a lot more controllable than an off at 75mph. And if you are at a track with little runoff, it doesn't take much to crunch your car.

You don't have to watch this whole video (or any of it lol) but this is a track day I took my SS Sedan to in November and you can see just how narrow it is and we were hitting 130mph+ at the end of the straight in the higher horsepower cars. You have to start to brake A LOT earlier than you think you do at that speed. Very little runoff on this track in numerous areas and very close concrete walls. I would not recommend learning in a fast car at this track. If you overcook a turn you're going to hit a wall. You can see at 1:17 I get pretty loose (I drive with the nannies off. It took 4 corners to get back into my rhythm. Pretty ugly. LOL) and If it couldn't have been caught I would have hit the barriers. That was a 60mph turn in my car.

That's a great point as well. The track you learn on is really important. i have not gone off track or spun in the ZL1 although I have had the tail get away from me at some point of almost every track day. The tracks I run at are mostly open field if you run off besides one section of each track that has a nice wall for you to run into. High horsepower plus tight track with no runoff is probably a bad idea.

[PolynesianPowerhouse]

Good article, and def agree. I started autox in a cavalier, then moved up to a 2007 charger, then a 2013 camaro, then now the 2016 camaro.

Before that it was R/c cars 1/10the on road electric.


Always on Grand Tourismo, waiting for the new onemail as well. But still having fun going for 100% completion on gt6. Using a tr300 rs wheel and pedals is a huge step up from a controller. More precise in every way.

Autox I always push for people to try first. Track is great, but snap oversteer I've seen take many cars and 2 lives. Be a cone killer first!

[BradfordCamaro]

I did the same at the bar back in the day. Start with the ugly and fat ones until you hone your skillz.

[Casalino]

Originally Posted by BradfordCamaro

I did the same at the bar back in the day. Start with the ugly and fat ones until you hone your skillz.

haha!

[Extreme Dimensions]

i agree my old car was a 250hp fwd cobalt ss turbo and it was fun as hell! cant wait to get my 455hp rwd camaro ss on the track!

had a track day last weekend at aaa speedway aka fontana but it got rained out :(

[apexit53]

In all my years of autoX I can say I learned the most about car control and having a car at its limit from two cars. 88 honda CRX and an 04 S2000. Driving a slow car fast and keeping that speed where you have power to cover mistakes is tricky and takes some getting used to, maybe a brave pill here and there.

good article!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by mjk3888

I understand and even agree with the premise that a slower car could be easier to learn to drive on. However, I think the approach ability of the SS 1LE is so great that it almost gives you the same feel of control that a slower car does.

The scary part here is that a car with less progressive behavior (more linear up to higher limits) is the car that will be more likely to catch a less experienced driver out as he approaches its limits (either intentionally or otherwise). Linear behavior encourages faster/harder driving because it continues to feel like there's plenty of grip remaining, that you're still "completely stuck down" . . . until (all of a sudden) there isn't and you aren't.

Too much emphasis was read into the numbers in Jack's 65/63/64 cornering speed illustration. For less track-experienced drivers, he could just as well have used 70/60/65.


Norm

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I think you're correct with regards to the process and the techniques...and yes, you can drive a fast car slow at first to learn the limits - all relatively intelligent people should.

But....there is a HUGE inherent advantage (imo) to driving a slow car fast that I don't think the article properly stressed (they mentioned it).

Slow cars reach their limits at slower speeds. Slower speeds mean more time between A and B.

And if A and B happen to be the entry and exit of a corner...a slow car fast will afford drivers more time to learn how to handle a corner properly.

You can't do the same thing in a fast car slow, because you're not tickling its limits...

+1

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by 67Builder

Again I agree, but only to a point. No matter if you start in a slow or fast car, it's seat time and working your way up to the limits that will provide you the knowledge required to be a competent driver. And competent is about all that the majority can ever hope to be. If someone didn't grow up racing, or just plain doesn't have time to hit as many events as they'd like to. Tellng them they're just never going to be able to understand because they've never spent time working the wheel in a lower end car is pretty damn dismissive.

Maybe 'never' was too strong a word. But the potential of a much faster car can get in the way if its driver can't hold its speed down during the early stages of his development as a track driver . . . the steep part of his learning curve. Jack's Mid-Ohio example illustrates this better. Keep in mind that we're talking about novices and freshly-minted intermediates here, people the rest of whose entire driving resume to date might only consist of mild to perhaps moderately enthusiastic street driving. Plus maybe one or two autocrosses the year before.

Originally Posted by Jack Baruth, boldface mine

Let's say you're heading towards China Beach at Mid-Ohio. In a stock Miata, you'll arrive at 105mph; in a Boxster, 135; in a Z06, 160; in a LaFerrari, maybe 180. Now let's say that you need to practice choosing the right speed between 46mph and 49mph to hit the apex of that downhill right-hander. Do you think you'll be more precise if you're starting from 105, or from 180?

67 - what I can tell you here is that if Mid-O was the first track I ever drove on solo, I wouldn't have approached China Beach at the speeds I did if I didn't have the benefit of solo seat time at other tracks, some autocross experience, and just plain working at driving smoothly all the time.

But anyone and I really do mean anyone given enough time and an instructor that can work with them can be made to drive their fast cars in a competent manner. Is he ever going to be Tommy Milner? Nope! But as long as he's enjoying himself (or herself), that's all that really matters.

I have to wonder about that, about any driving errors the car might be covering for on the way up to that plateau. What happens when (say) a 1:40 lap - doesn't sound good enough any more?


Norm