[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

A T4 Camaro is only going to be 3,400lbs on the upper trim scales...

Show me a 2.0T that is 2,400lbs that isn't a stripped out, rattle box shithouse please..

One of the favorites of the tuner crowd is the Subaru BRZ. I believe the 2016 model only comes NA (odd, huh?) but there are quite a few turbo packages for it. I believe the BRZ weighs in at 2750#'s and the turbo/intercooler is about 50-75#'s but even if it adds 100#'s it is still significantly lighter (>700#'s) than the Camaro and would most likely be the choice of the crowd that want to bring a knife to a gun fight 😁

[Mike502]

I thought they discontinued scion brand.

[bigdonut]

Originally Posted by 90503

Believe me, you are only scratching the surface....If you really delve into the issue, it will make your head spin and your stomach turn....and it's not a pretty picture at all. I doubt anyone will agree, and for simplistic reasons it will sound outrageous, but I'm telling you this: Young people will only buy 4cyl, tuner-type cars for many seemingly irrational reasons...

Anything big V-8 (even V-6) engines are perceived as an "American" car, a racist, homophobic purchase of old-school technology....The 4 cyl turbo is global, saves the planet, is trendy...American cars and "gas-guzzlers" are hated by college professors. Young people are peer-pressured into avoiding anything patriotic or that contributes to global-warming....Some Sororities and Fraternities will not associate or "date" (if you get my drift) anyone who owns a gas-guzzler, especially one American made.

I'm not trying to rant about politics, just highlighting a huge school of thought that has gone unchallenged and allowed to fester for many years. Young people are mostly unfamiliar, and unwilling to learn or care about the performance and benefits of a V-8 or V-6. It's a Turbo-4 tuner, or nothing.

Al O. and GM are putting the reasons mildly and in a positive spin. But they are absolutely correct there is a large segment that will only buy a T-4....but there's more to the reasoning of why that is. More like the entire future of GM and passenger cars for the general public will soon not even include a V-8...

Sorry, I had to put it out there, flame away and/or delete it if you see fit...It certainly won't apply to all turbo-4 enthusiasts....but it will to a significant amount, for sure...Mark my words, once the 4banger forums get rolling....You'll see what I mean.

I heavily disagree. Most young people prefer this because they like the fuel economy and power. The hasty generalization of young people disliking V8's is not true. I'm sure plenty like them, but can't afford them in terms of capital and O&M costs. I've spoken to young friends of mine and they tend to like cars that look sporty. Many of them actually like the Tesla. What we're witnessing among young people is mostly a cultural shift. V8's aren't affordable as they used to be and the overall car culture has gone down since the 60s. Different generations grow up with different frames of mind; every generation thinks uniquely. Young people buy the base level because it's cheaper up front, has good fuel economy, fast, but is still is a Camaro.

Unfortunately, V8's won't last forever. Technology will replace spark and compression ignition engines by the next 100 years. It's time to embrace change and reflect on what made the past great.

And the V8 being racist and homophobic? I don't know where you got your ideas about the college professors and dating norms, but they seem out of place.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

One of the favorites of the tuner crowd is the Subaru BRZ. I believe the 2016 model only comes NA (odd, huh?) but there are quite a few turbo packages for it. I believe the BRZ weighs in at 2750#'s and the turbo/intercooler is about 50-75#'s but even if it adds 100#'s it is still significantly lighter (>700#'s) than the Camaro and would most likely be the choice of the crowd that want to bring a knife to a gun fight ��

To SpeedIsLife's point...that car is a rattletrap. Very uncouth to drive, I was extremely unimpressed. It felt to me like a Miata missing a bunch of bolts. But it IS light, and loose, and "fun". It's got a boxer engine, too, which has it's own sub-cult following. So there's appeal. Yet.....the Challenger sells more cars than that thing.

I think a potential buyer will value the "solid" feel and comparatively luxurious interior of the T4 Camaro compared to the twin cars at a similar price point. My .02 only...

I don't understand it, personally. I'm right with you on your commentary starting with something bigger/more, etc...but it's a hobby that exists and seems to be growing in popularity...start with a tiny little engine and boost the crap out of it.

[jessrayo]

I think it is really an economics thing. If I can buy a 4 cyl Camaro that comes stock with an engine block designed to handle boost for about $26K and it weighs less than the rest of Camaro line-up. I'm pretty sure I could take the 10 grand below the starting price of a 1SS and purchase race tires, lowering springs, stiffer bushings and a turbo upgrade making a Camaro that could run faster laps. I'm always looking for bang for the buck and I do not rule out what is available from the aftermarket. I just think if you buy a V8 Camaro and put on aftermarket turbos you are going to be able to torment hellcats.... and just about anything else on the race track and still have less invested than the competition.

And as far as I'm concerned, the real tuner fanatics are spending more time on the road course and not the drag strip. Big R compound tires on these 4 cyl featherweights are pulling some serious G's and corner speeds that challenge the heavy V8's.

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by Mike502

I thought they discontinued scion brand.

They did. All Scions are now going to be branded with the Toyota logo. Similar to what GM did years ago with rebranding all GEOs with the Chevrolet bow-tie.

[RPWoodbine]

I know you’re not prepared to talk about future products, but are there any inherent stumbling blocks in the lighter, smaller Alpha architecture to offering up big-letter performance models like the ZL1 and Z/28?

His response, "You might see some big letters."

The above statement makes me wonder if "IROC-Z" is coming back. He didn't say big letters and numbers, he just said letters. Hopefully we'll find out at the end of March with the New York Auto Show.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by RPWoodbine

I know you’re not prepared to talk about future products, but are there any inherent stumbling blocks in the lighter, smaller Alpha architecture to offering up big-letter performance models like the ZL1 and Z/28?

His response, "You might see some big letters."

The above statement makes me wonder if "IROC-Z" is coming back. He didn't say big letters and numbers, he just said letters. Hopefully we'll find out at the end of March with the New York Auto Show.

International Race of Champions is no longer around though, so having an IROC model would make no sense.

[mkorgan]

Well, I think this thread has run its course but before it dies lets dispel the myth regarding fuel economy on this little turbo motors. It is not all it is cracked up to be..

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...aims/index.htm

The first paragraph: "Small turbocharged engines are marketed as delivering the power of a large engine, with the fuel economy of a smaller one. That's a tempting proposition, but our testing shows these small-displacement turbos are not delivering on the promises."

I think we are done here. Should be interesting to see what comes of the new breed of Camaro owner.

[mkorgan]

Originally Posted by RPWoodbine

I know you’re not prepared to talk about future products, but are there any inherent stumbling blocks in the lighter, smaller Alpha architecture to offering up big-letter performance models like the ZL1 and Z/28?

His response, "You might see some big letters."

The above statement makes me wonder if "IROC-Z" is coming back. He didn't say big letters and numbers, he just said letters. Hopefully we'll find out at the end of March with the New York Auto Show.

If they are going to make a car worthy of the badge (which they did in the Gen5) I pray they keep the "/" and the purpose built nature of the car. The 1LE will satisfy 99% of those that "think" they want a Z car. If they make a Z car and badge it as such, make it a halo car, make it for one thing, and do it better than anyone else. I had an '86 IROC-Z and there was nothing special about the car other than the decals, optional TPI, a couple interior items, and a thicker sway-bar. I hope GM never goes back to whoring out that badge again. If there is not a market for it, don't build it.

[LSxWittles]

Very nice read, appreciate the post.

On the 4 cyl turbo "issue" and why tuners like the BRZ (and Ecoboost too), with the tuners I hang around (track rats) it's all due to weight, and balance. The BRZ/FRS is so popular because it is VERY reminiscent of the Nissan S-chassis cars. Since there is no new Silvia, these cars fill that void. I've owned a few 4 cyl turbo cars in the past but I prefer V8's. The power delivery and feel is completely different and I enjoy both. I've talked to 3 friends who have owned ss/sc and ss/tc cobalts in the past and all 3 are very excited for the turbo 4 Camaro. Apologies for the rant lol.

Agreed with Al, this is a GREAT time for the Camaro/Mustang rivalry!

[mkorgan]

So, I have read the Al O interview 3or4 times and this line also intrigues me. AL said, and I will quote, "I can’t wait until you do your 1LE versus GT350 comparison, maybe even the R comparison."

I am going to say it right now. IF the 1LE gets within 1,5 seconds of the GT350R on Willow I will be totally shocked and will go to the dealer with cash in hand as soon as the big dogs following the 1LE is are announced.

[Tr6]

Originally Posted by mkorgan

So, I have read the Al O interview 3or4 times and this line also intrigues me. AL said, and I will quote, "I can’t wait until you do your 1LE versus GT350 comparison, maybe even the R comparison."

I am going to say it right now. IF the 1LE gets within 1,5 seconds of the GT350R on Willow I will be totally shocked and will go to the dealer with cash in hand as soon as the big dogs following the 1LE is are announced.

So true. Crazy part is... He KNOWS the numbers, he just won't say it haha!!! They've done crazy amounts of tests all over the world. I am sure he even has a general idea of what the next gen camaro or if there will be any upgrades/facelifts on the gen6 will happen, IF there will be.

We know badass the gen6 camaro is, we will learn more how more badass the 1LE is/will be very soon then just wait till the next camaro will be. I am damn sure it will be bat shit crazy but pricey haha. I am actually REALLY happy that the 1LE is 1SS ONLY lol. I love my 2SS and now because of the history... It ain't going anywhere. If the next camaro has all the 2SS goodies but with LT4, I do have room for it in the garage haha.

[Jeffro19]

Originally Posted by RPWoodbine

I know you’re not prepared to talk about future products, but are there any inherent stumbling blocks in the lighter, smaller Alpha architecture to offering up big-letter performance models like the ZL1 and Z/28?

His response, "You might see some big letters."

The above statement makes me wonder if "IROC-Z" is coming back. He didn't say big letters and numbers, he just said letters. Hopefully we'll find out at the end of March with the New York Auto Show.

Yeah hopefully we see something at the New York auto show. But we may have to wait another year since the 1LE was introduced for 2017. Be cool to have two performance models introduced for 2017 though.