Time for answers re: our tops! Scott, Jeff

[Maxcam]

I thought I was going to get away with not having rub marks. My car was built in April this year and just this Saturday noticed the rub marks. One side is almost a hole.

[Dr_Doom]

Just curious, has anyone actually had a top rub to the point of it leaking?

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by 95birdible

It seems as though we are only getting band aid fixes for all of our top issues. I sure wish someone from corporate would chime in and let us know what is really going on. My top is supposed to get replaced next week but after seeing all these problems with replaced tops I am not sure. Mine isn't that bad yet and is much better than those I have seen replaced. Who else thinks we should get some corporate comment on these besides me?

Here's the thing. In general, for anything that one might say, there is almost always a better reason to say nothing.

I offer for your consideration Netflix:
http://blog.netflix.com/2011/09/expl...flections.html

Consider a posting that starts with the words "I messed up".... Which in this case follows 1 day after a prior posting that starts with the words "I messed up"...

What I'm trying to say is that there are understandable reasons why the corporate comment you are looking for might not happen. Instead, look for it in the continued effort through waranty support.

Also, bear in mind that in automotive history (some recent, e.g. Toyota accelerator sticking) there are worse issues to have.

[motorhead]

Originally Posted by Xorshaik

Here's the thing. In general, for anything that one might say, there is almost always a better reason to say nothing.

I offer for your consideration Netflix:
http://blog.netflix.com/2011/09/expl...flections.html

Consider a posting that starts with the words "I messed up".... Which in this case follows 1 day after a prior posting that starts with the words "I messed up"...

What I'm trying to say is that there are understandable reasons why the corporate comment you are looking for might not happen. Instead, look for it in the continued effort through waranty support.

Also, bear in mind that in automotive history (some recent, e.g. Toyota accelerator sticking) there are worse issues to have.

Did you design the top on the new camaro?

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by mako651

I took ownership of my cg 2lt rs 3/18/11 it is a plastic tird, wife loved the look and I was also stuck by the lines and we bought it and it is a curse.
driver door not alligned right trim coming off burn marks on top and dealer tells me car is built buy machines not humans that is what you get. well for 37k and that answer my lawyer will beg to differ. for everyone that was caught up in the hype for this car and the mistake to buy it I am sorry for all of this. back to Nissan for true quality sports car.

Wow, there's a smiley for this!



I was looking for a facepalm smiley but that'll do.

Of course there are humans building your car, and they are using machines. And that isn't any different for Nissan either.

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by motorhead

Did you design the top on the new camaro?

Very funny, I've said a few times that I have not had any responsibility for the Camaro convertible top... I've looked back at various online discussion forums for parts I've worked with in the past and I really haven't had this kind of issue on anything I've had responsibility for. Still, choosing words carefully for public discussion is something any engineer will be familiar with. We do get called as witnesses in court, and my first boss had been through that while I was in the first year of my engineering career.

I did have an interesting non-automotive case where lawyers were involved... There is a lot I can't say, but let's put it in generic terms. A customer was threatening litigation after being burned from falling asleep while smoking, and my role was to determine whether any electrical fault was present which could have caused the problem. The product was being held in quarantine and to perform my evaluation, I had to submit my procedure for review by lawyers for both sides and offer the other side to be present AND video record the procedure. And keep my mouth shut.

I mean, this was an open-and-shut case, but if I was on tape with any sort of expression of surprise, a crafty lawyer can turn that into an appearance that something is being covered up in a jury case.

[95birdible]

Nice analogy with Netflix. Only problem I have with it is Netlfix is $14 a month. I spent over 40K on my car. I could rent a lot of movies on that kind of coin.

[Drago77]

Originally Posted by Xorshaik

Here's the thing. In general, for anything that one might say, there is almost always a better reason to say nothing.

I offer for your consideration Netflix:
http://blog.netflix.com/2011/09/expl...flections.html

Consider a posting that starts with the words "I messed up".... Which in this case follows 1 day after a prior posting that starts with the words "I messed up"...

What I'm trying to say is that there are understandable reasons why the corporate comment you are looking for might not happen. Instead, look for it in the continued effort through waranty support.

Also, bear in mind that in automotive history (some recent, e.g. Toyota accelerator sticking) there are worse issues to have.

While I completely understanding your point from this and the ensuing posts regarding silence and liability; this whole process is infuriating to the end user.

Sure, many dealer's are following through with the warranty work, in accordance with the TSBs - so perhaps, in corporates eyes, they're "adequately" addressing the issue and customer satisfaction... however, what's NOT being addressed ate the circumstances around each of these warranty issues which are causing huge inconveniences and money out of our pockets-

Each "problem" requires a trip to the service deptartment to verify the issue- that entails missed work, gas and mileage on the vehicle. Once its verified, then the parts need to be ordered, and either another appointment, or leaving the car there for a few days in limbo waiting on parts before the repair. Now sure, they give you a rental car, but so far I've had an HHR, a Cobalt, a Tahoe and 2 Impalas. So while I'm paying a $45k car payment, in driving a $20k car for a week at a time. And insurance! Then, for me, there's window tint. I have dark tint on my car. The dealer will not replace this since its not factory, nor the dealer I purchased the car from, therefore I've tinted the sane window 3 times at my expense as I'm on my 3rd top, all due to wear marks and rge dealer/trim shop killing the top. Not to mention, 3 rd bottle of top protectant @ $20/ bottle.

So you see, its not just a matter of "oh well, its under warranty, just bring it back" its costing us time, money and serious frustration! At least let someone acknowledge the damn problem and let us know what's being done about it!

[HDRDTD]

I think I would be happy just to get 'someone' from GM to just tell us 'we're listening'.
No details needed, just let us know you're aware of our comments and you're listening.

[whidobie]

I still say a Giant Mass Rally with a GIANT LEMON. I have over $50,000 invested in my car and waiting to put more money into mods, but not until i know it will be taken care of once and for all. I wonder if Mustang owners are having a field day with this yet!

[pony]

Been some time since I've posted as I have been busy driving and enjoying my vert Bre-z. Have 7400 miles on her, and the only problem I have had is enough time to drive her more.

I have 1 very small rub mark on the passenger side, but nothing that stands out. I did spray the top with 303 protectant with the first couple hundred miles, and think this may have helped considerably. I do agree that you should NOT have to take this extra step for the price of the we all paid for the car.

Hopefully I will not have the problems others are experiencing and hope things get better for everyone who is. Surely, no one can deny that the Camaro convertible IS a fantastic looking and driving car.

PS I hope I just didn't jinx myself

[Xorshaik]

Originally Posted by HDRDTD

I think I would be happy just to get 'someone' from GM to just tell us 'we're listening'.
No details needed, just let us know you're aware of our comments and you're listening.

Not just directed at you, but there are two ways I want to expand on my earlier points.

First of all, as long as this is still accepted as a waranty issue, that is your signal that someone from GM is listenning.

So here is some insight I can offer. When a dealer replaces a part under waranty, some dealers throw the old parts away, but they are supposed to ship them back to the OEM. I couldn't say whether it's required or if shipping is reimbursed or whether they throw away parts because reimbursement is slow or what the deal is, but waranty parts do get shipped back to the OEM. This is common to all OEM's I've worked with, and I can say that it is definitely done with GM.

When the waranty part is returned to the OEM, engineers review the part and they decide what to do with it, such as do measurements or tests or send it to the supplier that made the part for further analysis. It may take 2 or 3 months from the day the part comes off your car before it reaches this point, but unless the dealer throws the part away it happens.

You can probably ask your dealer if they are shipping your old parts back to GM. I know y'all have reason to hesitate to get tops serviced under waranty until you are more comfortable that they will be fixed well, but if you want to get your voice heard a waranty claim where a part ends up in the hands of GM is going to work better than posting here or any sort of public demonstration.

One caveat I will offer is that sometimes the OEM doesn't want parts returned if they are for a problem that is resolved (or there has been a revision and your parts are not the latest revision) or if they've received a lot of parts and don't need more parts for analysis. So if the dealer indicates they aren't returning the part because GM does not want more returns, then take that as a sign that GM is aware of the problem.

The above can be applied more generally to any automotive OEM on any issue.


Secondly, I want to expand on the point that there is a downside to anything that a corporate representative could say.

We've seen Jeff Morris post here representing GM customer service and facilitating contact, and hopefully being helpful to folks on an individual basis. I would suggest that this should be taken as a very encouraging sign.

That aside, one thing to remember is that if someone was to come here representing GM and acknowledge the problem, that comes with the drawback that they are now boxed into either resolving a problem or backing out on an implied commitment to do so. It's a corner that an organization doesn't want to get painted into because there is the possibility that resolving a problem might be cost prohibitive or not justified.

An example of a cost prohibitive solution would be if top wear marks could only be resolved by increasing the depth of the top well by 3 inches, and gaining those 3 inches required altering significant structural sheetmetal. I'm just giving that as an example of something which would probably be beyond what would be realistic to fix a waranty problem, and if all other options turned out to not eliminate top wear marks, the result could end up being that no fix would be offered.

Besides things we've already seen to soften sharp edges or apply tape to reduce friction, I've seen other things done to manage fold patterns which might be realistic to see as waranty fixes... One typical thing that is done is that elastic straps get added to the fabric top assembly to make it fold a certain way... And this kind of thing might be less obvious to most owners.

If you want to try to deduce whether any new fold management measures might be included in newer tops, I suppose one thing you could do is really study how your top folds and go to the dealership and watch how their newest Camaro convertible top folds during operation on the lot. But a better indication would be to watch revision levels on top cover service parts, or find out the part number and see if it becomes obsoleted and superceded by a new part number. Service part counter guys seem to tend to be a bit cranky though.

[OrangeVert]

Originally Posted by whidobie

I still say a Giant Mass Rally with a GIANT LEMON. I have over $50,000 invested in my car and waiting to put more money into mods, but not until i know it will be taken care of once and for all. I wonder if Mustang owners are having a field day with this yet!

I don't think there are many top suppliers in the automotive industry anymore, and I'd be surprised if other mfrs did not have at least some issues with their tops too. But to be fair there are probably more with ours as it's a new model design.

Originally Posted by Xorshaik

Not just directed at you, but there are two ways I want to expand on my earlier points.

...

If you want to try to deduce whether any new fold management measures might be included in newer tops, I suppose one thing you could do is really study how your top folds and go to the dealership and watch how their newest Camaro convertible top folds during operation on the lot. But a better indication would be to watch revision levels on top cover service parts, or find out the part number and see if it becomes obsoleted and superceded by a new part number. Service part counter guys seem to tend to be a bit cranky though.

Interesting, Xorshaik. Thanks for sharing your insight as to what may be going on behind the scenes. Goes to show there are a lot of factors in this, and not just the rub marks themselves. No doubt corporations can't say anything but the most vague statements these days. Hopefully the warranty process at GM will get this resolved.

[Baba]

Originally Posted by Xorshaik

Not just directed at you, but there are two ways I want to expand on my earlier points.

First of all, as long as this is still accepted as a waranty issue, that is your signal that someone from GM is listenning.

So here is some insight I can offer. When a dealer replaces a part under waranty, some dealers throw the old parts away, but they are supposed to ship them back to the OEM. I couldn't say whether it's required or if shipping is reimbursed or whether they throw away parts because reimbursement is slow or what the deal is, but waranty parts do get shipped back to the OEM. This is common to all OEM's I've worked with, and I can say that it is definitely done with GM.

When the waranty part is returned to the OEM, engineers review the part and they decide what to do with it, such as do measurements or tests or send it to the supplier that made the part for further analysis. It may take 2 or 3 months from the day the part comes off your car before it reaches this point, but unless the dealer throws the part away it happens.

You can probably ask your dealer if they are shipping your old parts back to GM. I know y'all have reason to hesitate to get tops serviced under waranty until you are more comfortable that they will be fixed well, but if you want to get your voice heard a waranty claim where a part ends up in the hands of GM is going to work better than posting here or any sort of public demonstration.

One caveat I will offer is that sometimes the OEM doesn't want parts returned if they are for a problem that is resolved (or there has been a revision and your parts are not the latest revision) or if they've received a lot of parts and don't need more parts for analysis. So if the dealer indicates they aren't returning the part because GM does not want more returns, then take that as a sign that GM is aware of the problem.

The above can be applied more generally to any automotive OEM on any issue.


Secondly, I want to expand on the point that there is a downside to anything that a corporate representative could say.

We've seen Jeff Morris post here representing GM customer service and facilitating contact, and hopefully being helpful to folks on an individual basis. I would suggest that this should be taken as a very encouraging sign.

That aside, one thing to remember is that if someone was to come here representing GM and acknowledge the problem, that comes with the drawback that they are now boxed into either resolving a problem or backing out on an implied commitment to do so. It's a corner that an organization doesn't want to get painted into because there is the possibility that resolving a problem might be cost prohibitive or not justified.

An example of a cost prohibitive solution would be if top wear marks could only be resolved by increasing the depth of the top well by 3 inches, and gaining those 3 inches required altering significant structural sheetmetal. I'm just giving that as an example of something which would probably be beyond what would be realistic to fix a waranty problem, and if all other options turned out to not eliminate top wear marks, the result could end up being that no fix would be offered.

Besides things we've already seen to soften sharp edges or apply tape to reduce friction, I've seen other things done to manage fold patterns which might be realistic to see as waranty fixes... One typical thing that is done is that elastic straps get added to the fabric top assembly to make it fold a certain way... And this kind of thing might be less obvious to most owners.

If you want to try to deduce whether any new fold management measures might be included in newer tops, I suppose one thing you could do is really study how your top folds and go to the dealership and watch how their newest Camaro convertible top folds during operation on the lot. But a better indication would be to watch revision levels on top cover service parts, or find out the part number and see if it becomes obsoleted and superceded by a new part number. Service part counter guys seem to tend to be a bit cranky though.

Very well put.