[Vtor_ZL1]

Lies, lies and statistics.

[TheWiseWolf]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Yeh...they drop 24% but still outsell Camaro..

This

its pretty pathetic even after that drop its still selling worse.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Any advertisement would be better than none at all. Seems like the bean counters are quickly creeping back into leaderships roles at GM.

Trucks aren't selling well anymore, car sales have dropped off compared to competitors. If they don't get things back on track with focusing on customers, they may end up in trouble again and I doubt anyone would bail them out this time.

And for God's sake, get some good designers already....

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Yeh...they drop 24% but still outsell Camaro..

True. Challenger outsold Camaro by 1,348 unit in Q1. An average of 449 unit per month.

The last number we saw showed Challenger as having 30% of its volume as fleet compared to 2% for Camaro.

Its doesn't appear to be the dominating sales performance being portrayed.

[bpang1234]

Originally Posted by Vtor_ZL1

Image sells and that car has fantastic image due in part to tv ads and smoky tires shenanigans.


It's featured on popular tv show - NCIS LA.



Track numbers and performance matter to very few people. Most people want the look of performance, some want to back it up, but that is small group.

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by hotlap

True. Challenger outsold Camaro by 1,348 unit in Q1. An average of 449 unit per month.

The last number we saw showed Challenger as having 30% of its volume as fleet compared to 2% for Camaro.

Its doesn't appear to be the dominating sales performance being portrayed.

People always seem to disregard the Mustang and Challenger fleet sales being vastly superior to the Camaro...... which is only because the base model Stang/Challenger are cheaper than Camaro, that's what rental fleets care about.

[DIYguy]

It is rather interesting to see this thread.

I am traveling at the moment and all of last week I rented a Camaro that was almost identical to the one I own.
This week however the Camaro was not available (due for an oil change) so I rented a Challenger for the remainder of the trip.
Both cars have less than 20k miles on them.

For this reason I have an immediate, fresh-in-the-mind comparison of these two similarly-equipped 2019 models.

The Challenger is definitely larger, both inside and outside, and unquestionably feels much heavier.
You can feel this in cornering and braking especially.
The overall performance is otherwise "similar" (both are V6 models with 8AT transmissions).
The steering and braking are noticeably more precise on the Camaro (either in touring or sport mode).

The visibility from inside the cabin is better in the Challenger for sure (not a surprise).
But the Camaro has a better fit and finish overall and feels more solid to me.
It just feels like the Camaro will hold up better and longer somehow.
Plus I prefer its styling over the Challenger (which strikes me as "old", understandable because it hasn't really changed in a very long time).

I must say I really like the Challenger's seats better even though the back recline is manual on the one I am renting.
With the driver's seat where I need it to be there is essentially zero rear seat legroom, just as in the Camaro.
The seat will however recline way back if I want it to (unlike the Camaro).

The Challenger is positively quiet inside compared to the Camaro.
I mean like highway cruiser quiet.
Very little road or tire noise and no noise tubes or other gimmicky sound "enhancements" that I can find.

The Camaro starts more crisply and idles better.
But the 8AT on the Challenger is silky smooth as compared to the Camaro.

Their instrument cluster display (things like gas mileage and so forth) are actually a bit nicer on the Challenger.
But the infotainment display is cluttered and a bit confusing.

So why are the "outselling" Camaros?
I think that the previous poster hit it on the head.
The rental companies are more likely to have Challengers and Mustangs available simply because they are cheaper.
At least that is certainly true where I am at the moment.
I could have had my pick of either one.
Not so the Camaro.
And then eventually they all find their way into the used car market.

So.......... ?

[RyanR623]

Rental fleets, advertising and commercials aside.... Let's not forget you can lease a damn R/T 5.7 V8 challenger for $259 a month. A buddy of mine leased a 2018 392 Scat Pack with brembo's and the shaker hood for $409 per month with $1000 down.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by hotlap

True. Challenger outsold Camaro by 1,348 unit in Q1. An average of 449 unit per month.

The last number we saw showed Challenger as having 30% of its volume as fleet compared to 2% for Camaro.

Its doesn't appear to be the dominating sales performance being portrayed.

Then they need to go back to fleet selling Camaro. Any sell is better than no sell.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Deputy Dog

Then they need to go back to fleet selling Camaro. Any sell is better than no sell.

Think about 30% fleet (Ford/Dodge) vs 2% (Chevy)as a fraction of the total sales. GM is limiting its exposure and choosing not to go that direction.

Automakers reconsider low-profit rental car sales

The U.S. auto industry - in the seventh year of a robust recovery - is rethinking how it measures sales, giving greater weight to quality over quantity.

General Motors is consciously de-emphasizing sales to daily rental fleets, a path it pursued much of last year.

Ford, at least for now, is moving in the opposite direction, relying on those bulk customers for 36% of its sales last month. Fiat Chrysler, the most dependent on fleets, saw its daily rental sales grow 18.5% last year, according to data compiled by Automotive Fleet, a trade publication.

Why does it matter? Fleet sales bring in a lower profit margin, and they also glut the used car market, pushing down prices.

In the not too distant past, when the Detroit Three had too many plants and not enough customers, rental companies were always a safety valve for vehicles consumers didn't want. The problem was sometimes those vehicles sold at a loss.

After the bankruptcies of 2009, that began to change, but not fast enough.

"On a short-term basis retail sales are the most profitable piece of our business," said Kurt McNeil, vice president of GM's U.S. sales operation. "Then you have fleet, which has 3 flavors - corporate, government and daily rental - daily rental is the least profitable."

It's true that cars sold to Hertz, Avis, National and Enterprise tend to sell at a lower price because they're equipped with fewer bells and whistles. But "over the longer term, those units come back to the marketplace and they tend to push down residual (resale) values and that generally will have a negative impact on your new car business," McNeil said.

Last year, GM reduced sales to daily rental fleets by 50,000. McNeil said the goal is to cut it by another 100,000 this year. For the first two months of this year, GM's daily rental sales were 11% of total sales compared with about 17% at Ford and 23% at FCA.

"If we see anything over 10% (of total sales) going to rental fleets, it will have a negative impact of residual values," said Eric Lyman, vice president of industry insights at TrueCar. "That is the level at which we make an adjustment in our forecast of our future values."


The price people are willing to pay for an automaker's newest model (the brand's value) depends a lot on the price dealers pay for its three-year-old vehicles at auction. And that resale price falls when there's a large wave of vehicles turned in by Hertz, Avis, National, Budget, Enterprise and Alamo.

Erich Merkle, Ford sales analyst, said Ford's fleet sales have been stronger than normal so far this year because the contracts with major rental agencies are coming due now.

"In that part of the business, two factors are important. First, you have to have companies that want to buy them and two, you have to be able to make them," Merkle said. "This year, those orders skewed heavily toward the front end of the year."

For example, look at Ford's best-selling product, the F-150 pickup. A year ago, plants in Dearborn and Kansas City were still gradually increasing production. Now, they're running at full capacity. So if Hertz or National come in with a large order, there's enough inventory to fill it.

Softening sales of compact and midsize passenger cars means more Focuses and Fusions are available for airport rental lots.

"Having some daily rental fleet business is good for a company," said IHS Automotive analyst Stephanie Brinley. "It can be used strategically, by ensuring the rental models are equipped with popular features. Rental fleets are one way to let consumers experience brands."

Today, most fleet sales, even to the rental companies, are profitable, but not enough for Wall Street's appetite for a 10% or higher profit margin across each automaker's lineup.

Traditionally, the Japanese automakers have been less dependent on selling to rental fleets, but that is beginning to change.

According to the Automotive Fleet data, Toyota sold 195,753 vehicles to rental fleets last year. While that was less than half GM's 400,254, it was up 13% from Toyota's 2014.

Hyundai and Kia's fleet sales rose 20% and 21%, respectively, last year to a collective 256,000. Fiat Chrysler's rental fleet sales rose to 385,907 in 2015, or 22% of total sales.

Now that the U.S. industry is in the seventh year of a one of its longest expansions ever, monthly sales numbers should be viewed through at least two lenses.

First, not everyone will be able to do better than the year-earlier month because last year was so strong. Second, even if one company's sales fall, look at their retail sales. That's where the profits are.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/class...307-story.html

[RagingHawk]

GM is doing fine, the 2019 Camaro sales will pick up. Many new SUVS are coming out that have good value so more will continue to flock towards them for AWD, comfort, mpg, and practicality.

I do think the Charger Scat Pack/Hellcats are badass cars though.

[KingLT1]

Doesn't surprise me...The Challenger makes for a more practical driver. The Charger even more so for those that can only afford or have room for 1 car and want a family hauler/performance vehicle. If I could only have 1 car it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro as much as I do like it.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Doesn't surprise me...The Challenger makes for a more practical driver. The Charger even more so for those that can only afford or have room for 1 car and want a family hauler/performance vehicle. If I could only have 1 car it wouldn't be a 6th gen Camaro as much as I do like it.

I honestly don't get how people think the Mustang or Challenger are more practical. What's practical to people? For us in the Midwest that's a midsize SUV with AWD like the very well selling Equinox. Or the GMC terrain, new Rav 4, Honda CR-V, etc.... The Challenger is not a more practical car to me imo.

Neither do I get the whole 'its more daily drivable' thing. I will dd any sports car including the Camaro if weather permits for it. I don't care if one car has a more stiff ride or not, it's still daily drivable' to me if we had warm year round weather. So if I'm looking for practicality it's a midsize SUV.

[orange blaze]

We all have our favorites. I am a GM guy and think that the Camaro is superior to the other two in a number of ways. I like it that there are other muscle cars out there to provide competition. As has been mentioned there should be way more Camaro ads out there to attract people. Even though I am not fond of the 2019 refresh it is still an awesome muscle car.