[Gunkk]

Al is engineering. Kudos to Al for giving the SS the A10, line lock etc.

Tom Peters is the one who needs to be answering for this abortion.

[V8RWD]

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

Well in the Motor Trend H2H the Mustang GT ran away from the 1LE after 1/4 mile . . . so yeah a little boost would help.

Lets see if GM digs in their heels and sticks with the front facia . . .

2015-2017 Mustangs GTs were getting their assess kicked by every measurable performance compared to the Camaro..... but still kicked Camaro's ass in sales.

While I welcome more performance, from a business perspective, that is not going to solve their sales issues.

[thefirstcause]

Making it look like the Transformers 5 design was just trying to recapture the glory from 2007. The thing is... Transformers isn't what made the Camaro a desirable car... it was the fact that it looked badass and performed pretty damn well. As the years passed the performance got better. The movies just helped as an additional advertisement.

But the thing is... the movies damn well sucked... they still suck. And while they were fresh back then... and sucked... now all the hype is gone... and they suck! The movies are doing poorly compared to how they once did. They are shadow of their former selves... and in someways it feels like the Camaro is starting to become that way too.

It seems the ZL1 1LE is now officially PEAK 6gen appearance. As good as it is going to get and it really does look fantastic. They nailed that. I think with the refreshed rearend and taillights it will get it will still look awesome. But that is it for 6gen. If there is a Z28.. and I'm doubting it now... it might look like the refresh just as the 5gen Z28 did.

[V8RWD]

Originally Posted by CCG Garnet Red

But, but, Mustang makes a car in '18 that comes from that old "Bullett" movie and it looks good. We get a car that's a cross from the alien in "Predator" and the last ugly "Transformer Camaro".

Every special Mustang that Ford makes, in its original form, has appreciated in value.

Shelby GT350
Shelby GT500
Mach 1
Boss
Bullitt (okay, was just a movie car, but it has gone up in value)

Ford keeps their nomenclature consistent. And like Dodge, they use catchy names.

GM on the other hand, specifically the Camaro, is a mess.

Transformers = Has no value
Hot Wheels = Has no value

And the real cool cars that they do make? It's full of alpha numeric codes that most people don't get. What's worse than "ZL1 1LE"? Seriously, is that marketable compared to "Shelby" or even something without heritage, the "Hellcat"?

Now, letters and numbers can actually work--if you keep it consistent over history. Look at Porsche with their "GT3". BMW with their "M3". Problem with Camaro is that on the 4th generation, Z/28 was ranked below SS. Then in 5th generation, the designations swapped in the pecking order. And, on top of that, at one time GM was trying to make the "SS" a performance moniker for the entire Chevy brand like AMG or M, and have been slapping it on Malibu wagons (that were getting outgunned by Camry V6), and even SUVs. And of course, they abandoned that all together now. Where is Cruze SS? Chevy Tahoe gets a performance version now, and is called "RST".

Who knows how long it will be before GM abandons "1LE" and other designations. It really is a true disaster, and I do believe in the long run, it affects their sales. Certain car brands, or designation of a model, can automatically aid in sales--just because of their consistent history of delivering a good product under the promise of the name.

GM needs to build some equity in their names. It has a rich history, but unless you're an enthusiast, you wouldn't know it.

[CCG Garnet Red]

Originally Posted by V8RWD

Every special Mustang that Ford makes, in its original form, has appreciated in value.

Shelby GT350
Shelby GT500
Mach 1
Boss
Bullitt (okay, was just a movie car, but it has gone up in value)

Ford keeps their nomenclature consistent. And like Dodge, they use catchy names.

GM on the other hand, specifically the Camaro, is a mess.

Transformers = Has no value
Hot Wheels = Has no value

And the real cool cars that they do make? It's full of alpha numeric codes that most people don't get. What's worse than "ZL1 1LE"? Seriously, is that marketable compared to "Shelby" or even something without heritage, the "Hellcat"?

Now, letters and numbers can actually work--if you keep it consistent over history. Look at Porsche with their "GT3". BMW with their "M3". Problem with Camaro is that on the 4th generation, Z/28 was ranked below SS. Then in 5th generation, the designations swapped in the pecking order. And, on top of that, at one time GM was trying to make the "SS" a performance moniker for the entire Chevy brand like AMG or M, and have been slapping it on Malibu wagons (that were getting outgunned by Camry V6), and even SUVs. And of course, they abandoned that all together now. Where is Cruze SS? Chevy Tahoe gets a performance version now, and is called "RST".

Who knows how long it will be before GM abandons "1LE" and other designations. It really is a true disaster, and I do believe in the long run, it affects their sales. Certain car brands, or designation of a model, can automatically aid in sales--just because of their consistent history of delivering a good product under the promise of the name.

GM needs to build some equity in their names. It has a rich history, but unless you're an enthusiast, you wouldn't know it.

SS began as an appearance package. Only later meant performance. You're correct, Z-28 began to lose it's identity in the 4th Gen when you couldn't tell it from a v6 Camaro, unless you saw the emblems and the dual exhaust. Making SS top dawg also hurt Z-28 image. Now Z-28, a true track car like the 1967. If today's SS was called a Z-28, it would probably sell better (except the 2019!). I know it's because of so many baby boomers (I am one) and so few automotive sporty choices, but over 86K Z-28's sold in 1979, among about 260K total Camaros. Firebirds sold even better. Camaro is now a niche vehicle. SUV's and pickups everywhere.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by V8RWD

And the real cool cars that they do make? It's full of alpha numeric codes that most people don't get. What's worse than "ZL1 1LE"? Seriously, is that marketable compared to "Shelby" or even something without heritage, the "Hellcat"?

Completely agree. I've owned an SS and been into the Camaro forums here for awhile and still for the life of me have no idea what a 2LT / 1LS / RS etc. is. Mustang and Challenger nomenclature is so much easier to figure out, even to the relatively uninitiated.

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by V8RWD

2015-2017 Mustangs GTs were getting their assess kicked by every measurable performance compared to the Camaro..... but still kicked Camaro's ass in sales.

While I welcome more performance, from a business perspective, that is not going to solve their sales issues.

How many people (even in this segment) actually track their car, participate in autocross, or take it to the drag strip? I think a lot fewer than people here realize. Maybe 5-10%?

Sure, people want performance, but in this segment they also want good looks, a well designed and comfortable interior, and something manageable to drive on a daily basis. I think Mustang wins on all of those points. The fact that a SS can smoke a GT around Laguna Seca is great but just isn't relevant to most buyers.

[RenegadeXR]

Originally Posted by thefirstcause

The movies just helped as an additional advertisement.

But the thing is... the movies damn well sucked... they still suck. And while they were fresh back then... and sucked... now all the hype is gone... and they suck.

One thing I dislike about Michael Bay movies is the quick pacing and heavy use of "throw-away" scenes that seem really disjointed, as if he was directing things scene by scene without considering the movie as a whole.

But if you throw ideas at a wall enough to see what sticks, even talentless people can get lucky sometimes. This one scene in particular is probably responsible for an absolute ton of Camaro sales. People cite it time and time again as the moment they said to themselves, "shit, I really want this car." Myself included.



That being said, I feel it could have fit into a 10 second TV commercial very easily. The rest of the movie, let alone the other 4 that would follow, really weren't needed. Because transformers have the flexibility to... transform... rather than have 405,543,593 iterations of a Camaro with increasingly more random crap tacked onto it, just have the thing transform into a VW Beetle and be done with it. Maybe after the standalone Bumblebee movie, Chevy will finally pull out and invest that money into better advertising.

[Cgocifer]

Originally Posted by Navigator

How many people (even in this segment) actually track their car, participate in autocross, or take it to the drag strip? I think a lot fewer than people here realize. Maybe 5-10%?

Sure, people want performance, but in this segment they also want good looks, a well designed and comfortable interior, and something manageable to drive on a daily basis. I think Mustang wins on all of those points. The fact that a SS can smoke a GT around Laguna Seca is great but just isn't relevant to most buyers.

Bragging rights go a long way. Ever hear the old mantra? Win on Sunday, sell on Monday....

[PoorMansCamaro]

They need to match the price point of the mustang, or undercut them slightly. because the masses look at that the most.

[AchiliesSS]

Originally Posted by BuckeyeROC

That's EXACTLY why I think it's ugly.

If it was not called a mustang and had a different name I would think it still looks like a aston or a fusion but I would agree it was cool looking, but coming from a guy who has had nearly every gen mustang esp loving the classics, I say it is horrific looking.

[L78toLT1]

Originally Posted by Navigator

As a professional in a conservative field, I'm somewhat embarrassed to own this car and drive it to work in a parking garage full of of A6s, E classes, and 5 series. I bought the car for the drivetrain and performance rather than looks (which I never loved), but it strikes me as somewhat juvenile looking. The 2015+ Mustang, on the other hand (which I used to own), looks a lot more refined and professional. But, the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger market probably doesn't have a lot of professionals, would be my guess.

There’s one exception to the conservative professional auto demographic: Aerospace engineers. Our parking lot is full of Camaros/Mustangs/Challengers. I do admit, however that the Stangs and Challengers far outnumber the Camaros. It should also be noted that the majority of these these cars are V8 powered. 392 Challengers are very well represented, we also have two non-R GT 350s and one 6th gen ZL1.
I wholeheartedly concur on the HotWheels / cartoon crap. I got my first HotWheels car, a ’67 or 68 mustang fastback for my 8th birthday; I’m 58 now. That was great when I was 8, but I would certainly be embarrassed to own/drive a HotWheels Camaro. I’d be embarrassed to even be seen in the presence of a Camaro with any sort of Transformers badging.

[protovack]

I think people are over-blowing the association with Transformers. Its a marketing tactic, that's it. A particularly crass, juvenile marketing tactic yes, but a marketing tactic none-the-less. Don't read into it that much.

[init4fun]

Originally Posted by Navigator

As a professional in a conservative field, I'm somewhat embarrassed to own this car and drive it to work in a parking garage full of of A6s, E classes, and 5 series. I bought the car for the drivetrain and performance rather than looks (which I never loved), but it strikes me as somewhat juvenile looking. The 2015+ Mustang, on the other hand (which I used to own), looks a lot more refined and professional. But, the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger market probably doesn't have a lot of professionals, would be my guess.

I completely disagree. I'm a "professional" and drive a 2017 2SS. There are a number of guys in my company with Mustangs, Challangers and other Camaros including a couple of ZL1's. There are a few of the partners with deeper pockets with Z06;s and at least one R8 that I know of. On a nice summers day the parking lot here looks like a modern day car show.

Consider yourself better off by not choosing an A6, E-Class or 5 series. In most circles these are considers douch-mobiles and most guys these days wouldn't be caught dead in one.