[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

Exactly ^ what are the AVERAGE passes made in these cars because it's about consistency. So you ran your car and your BEST pass is a 10.8? or whatever. You can't possibly match it every pass. " Or at least I can't lol " So far on average the ZL1 seems pretty consistent.

I know my car is very consistent! About the only change in times occur when I try something different looking for a better launch. That consistency will only improve with a drag tire I think.

[Infern0]

Originally Posted by Raven87

I could not agree with you more regarding the need for better tires on cars like the HC to get the power to the ground. And, I don't think anyone is fooling themselves thinking that a true 'stock' configuration tire-wise is the real world when truly drag racing competitively.

It's really just about the semantics of what is stock and what is not. The need is there for better tires on these cars and no one can deny that. Putting DRs or slicks on also has very well proven performance benefits.

But that ain't stock... it IS better performance wise. But it still is not stock.

So, if one goes to the track with his stock tired ZL1 or HC and thinks that it will do the best it will do against an identical ZL1 or HC that has a tire upgrade he definitely would be fooling himself. I don't think anyone who buys these cars is that dumb?

And once you open the Pandora's Box of mods that begin with a simple tire change - a change that is certainly justifiable - you have a modded car. Slightly modded, yes. But still not stock.

And that is all I and others are saying. YES - you absolutely NEED better tires on a car like the HC to get the most out of it at the track. I think a tire change would be the FIRST mod anyone would/should do to a car like that.

But NO, that is no longer a 'stock' car once you do from a truly technical viewpoint.

Stock/as delivered is a great equalizer of sorts. All cars come stock from the factory. But if you put 315 DRs on your HC and Billy Bob puts 12" slicks that are shorter in height to 'change' the gear ratio on his, where is the equalization in that? There is not any. You would have to specify something about tread design, tire height/width, etc for things to be equal again if you agree that Driver A can mod his car with a tire of his choosing while Driver B wants to go bigger, stickier, etc.

'Stock' - while seemingly unfair to those with more HP than others - does indeed exist from a puritanical perspective and thus ensures that all who meet that requirement have equal opportunity to attain a performance target of their choosing while being compared with their peers who have cars equally set up as in, pure 100% as delivered off the showroom floor 'Stock'.

'Modded' - well, there is where the fun begins. And that's why that Pandora's Box is so enticing.

It's all good.

[Speedy1975]

Originally Posted by HAMMERHEAD15

Lol. You know it all! Here's the deal. The supercharger creates much more heat. With the new cars and the ECU they will pull timing down the track! If you drive the car to the track it compounds the issue if you don't allow the car to cool completely down before you run it! You can deal with your hypothetical calculators if you want I'll deal with what I see at the track in the real world! I've watch my 5th gen run 11.40 in 45degree weather and 11.90 in 100 degree weather! I don't give a damn about your calculator! Like I said come down here and run in this 100 degree weather with 90 percent humidity and you will find out how much difference it makes! You act like you know what the 17 ZL1 runs when the owners don't even know yet. None of your hellcats are out running me down here yet. I don't know what will happen when it cools down but I can only assume we will all get better times! As for me looking at your tail lights you better run a lot better than the guys down here and you better be able to nail the tree every time that's one thing I specialize in! I'm not one that owns a car and don't take it to the track like you keep referring to!

I don't claim to know it all, but when I get interested in something I dig in to learn as much as I possibly can, and continue to do so.

DA has nothing at all to do with the car pulling timing, etc, due to IAT, ECT, outside of what it does at a given IAT, ECT, STKR, LTKR, etc perspective. It's just a byproduct of the programming. This is one area I'm quite skilled as I adjust tunes etc for folks and understand data logging extremely well. DA is Density Altitude and as I'm sure you know is typically used in aviation to reference how dense air happens to be based on a known reference point. Thankfully for us there are simple calculators that tell us what it is. FI motors aren't as impacted because they are compressing the air making better use of what's available vs an NA motor. Turbos are less impacted that SCs.

Based on your thought above, you could run your car over and over and over heating it up even in negative DA and the computers would still make their adjustments as thresholds were met, outside of any DA. The car doesn't care, it just reads the sensors. Now yes, to your point, typically higher DA will mean higher ambient temps, but the point still remains. It'll just take longer to heat soak the car in cooler air, but it will still happen if you beat on it hard enough.

The Gen5 ZL1 is a great example of your point about the timing pull etc. GM was apparently a bit leery of the boost on the motor and from what we've seen in logs it pulls timing early and often. The Gen6 ZL1 so far hasn't seemed to be plagued as bad by that problem, reference 17CamaroZL1's slips showing 7 back to back runs being pretty consistent.

I can tell you without a doubt the Hellcat doesn't heat soak until it's WAY up there. I've taken a look at the actual spark modification tables in the tune and was quite surprised at how comfortable the engineers were with heat. It's literally off the chart as far as I'm concerned and a temp you'd likely never be able to achieve.

Originally Posted by NicD

I think to settle this you guys need to only compare identical stock times. I'm talking identical DA, identical temperature<snip...>

You joke, but honestly this is why events like CamaroFest and ChallengerFest are so great. You can get cars from all over together at the same track and really see what's what. Same day, same track, same DA, same track prep, etc. My buddies and I used to always razz each other on who's supercharger was best, and we always have fun racing each other and comparing time slips at ChallengerFest.

Originally Posted by hotlap

^^^Right. From what I've read, the torque management is hindering 60 times on the ZL1. Especially the M6 cars.

If drag radials allow the Hellcat to put down the engines power better then the ZL1 should be able to tune out torque management. The engine is still stock after all.

Once you hook a tuner/laptop to a car, it all goes to pot trying to make comparisons. "Oh I only turned off TM" but what we can't see is that 6° of timing was added for 109 race gas that was put in the tank at the house, the shift points are extended 700RPM for 70 more HP, etc. If you could just legitimately push a button in the car to disable it, then game on and I would 100% agree with you, but it doesn't sound like that's the case in the ZL1. The Hellcat turns it all off if you hold the TC button down for like 3 seconds, and it's a very scary ride when you do.

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

Exactly ^ what are the AVERAGE passes made in these cars because it's about consistency. So you ran your car and your BEST pass is a 10.8? or whatever. You can't possibly match it every pass. " Or at least I can't lol " So far on average the ZL1 seems pretty consistent.

Average is an option, but how's that gonna be taken care of on the list that's being referenced for "stock" times. I personally don't like hero runs either outside of saying "hey I hit a PB", but I always like to back them up at least two more times to call it good.

Originally Posted by Raven87

I could not agree with you more regarding the need for better tires on cars like the HC to get the power to the ground. And, I don't think anyone is fooling themselves thinking that a true 'stock' configuration tire-wise is the real world when truly drag racing competitively.

It's really just about the semantics of what is stock and what is not. The need is there for better tires on these cars and no one can deny that. Putting DRs or slicks on also has very well proven performance benefits.

But that ain't stock... it IS better performance wise. But it still is not stock.

So, if one goes to the track with his stock tired ZL1 or HC and thinks that it will do the best it will do against an identical ZL1 or HC that has a tire upgrade he definitely would be fooling himself. I don't think anyone who buys these cars is that dumb?

And once you open the Pandora's Box of mods that begin with a simple tire change - a change that is certainly justifiable - you have a modded car. Slightly modded, yes. But still not stock.

And that is all I and others are saying. YES - you absolutely NEED better tires on a car like the HC to get the most out of it at the track. I think a tire change would be the FIRST mod anyone would/should do to a car like that.

But NO, that is no longer a 'stock' car once you do from a truly technical viewpoint.

Stock/as delivered is a great equalizer of sorts. All cars come stock from the factory. But if you put 315 DRs on your HC and Billy Bob puts 12" slicks that are shorter in height to 'change' the gear ratio on his, where is the equalization in that? There is not any. You would have to specify something about tread design, tire height/width, etc for things to be equal again if you agree that Driver A can mod his car with a tire of his choosing while Driver B wants to go bigger, stickier, etc.

'Stock' - while seemingly unfair to those with more HP than others - does indeed exist from a puritanical perspective and thus ensures that all who meet that requirement have equal opportunity to attain a performance target of their choosing while being compared with their peers who have cars equally set up as in, pure 100% as delivered off the showroom floor 'Stock'.

'Modded' - well, there is where the fun begins. And that's why that Pandora's Box is so enticing.

It's all good.

I don't disagree at all. I've never said my car is stock or not with DRs, I've stood by my position that I go to the track for maximum performance. There seems to be an inordinate amount of folks here that are hung up on stock tires though. I plan to achieve max performance in the Hellcat before I do anything to add horsepower. I'll know when I get there as times will stabilize after I've done all I can other than add power.

It seems to me a lot of guys or gals here are getting hung up on stock tires and all that because they don't want to invest in a set of wheels and tires dedicated for the track, and this gives them an out. Racing ain't cheap once you really take the plunge, but it's worth it. I fought tires myself for two years before I finally saw the light and spent a few bucks. You can do it pretty cost effective if you know what you need and get things during sales.

[grampa_ss]

Going to the track on stock tires is flat out dangerous. I know at our local track (crap track prep) I spun so bad I almost saw the wall. At that point I left. There just no point in racing at 1/2 throttle. I'm way faster on the street than at our track. From now on it's DR's only.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by Speedy1975

I don't claim to know it all, but when I get interested in something I dig in to learn as much as I possibly can, and continue to do so.

DA has nothing at all to do with the car pulling timing, etc, due to IAT, ECT, outside of what it does at a given IAT, ECT, STKR, LTKR, etc perspective. It's just a byproduct of the programming. This is one area I'm quite skilled as I adjust tunes etc for folks and understand data logging extremely well. DA is Density Altitude and as I'm sure you know is typically used in aviation to reference how dense air happens to be based on a known reference point. Thankfully for us there are simple calculators that tell us what it is. FI motors aren't as impacted because they are compressing the air making better use of what's available vs an NA motor. Turbos are less impacted that SCs.

Based on your thought above, you could run your car over and over and over heating it up even in negative DA and the computers would still make their adjustments as thresholds were met, outside of any DA. The car doesn't care, it just reads the sensors. Now yes, to your point, typically higher DA will mean higher ambient temps, but the point still remains. It'll just take longer to heat soak the car in cooler air, but it will still happen if you beat on it hard enough.

The Gen5 ZL1 is a great example of your point about the timing pull etc. GM was apparently a bit leery of the boost on the motor and from what we've seen in logs it pulls timing early and often. The Gen6 ZL1 so far hasn't seemed to be plagued as bad by that problem, reference 17CamaroZL1's slips showing 7 back to back runs being pretty consistent.

I can tell you without a doubt the Hellcat doesn't heat soak until it's WAY up there. I've taken a look at the actual spark modification tables in the tune and was quite surprised at how comfortable the engineers were with heat. It's literally off the chart as far as I'm concerned and a temp you'd likely never be able to achieve.



You joke, but honestly this is why events like CamaroFest and ChallengerFest are so great. You can get cars from all over together at the same track and really see what's what. Same day, same track, same DA, same track prep, etc. My buddies and I used to always razz each other on who's supercharger was best, and we always have fun racing each other and comparing time slips at ChallengerFest.



Once you hook a tuner/laptop to a car, it all goes to pot trying to make comparisons. "Oh I only turned off TM" but what we can't see is that 6° of timing was added for 109 race gas that was put in the tank at the house, the shift points are extended 700RPM for 70 more HP, etc. If you could just legitimately push a button in the car to disable it, then game on and I would 100% agree with you, but it doesn't sound like that's the case in the ZL1. The Hellcat turns it all off if you hold the TC button down for like 3 seconds, and it's a very scary ride when you do.



Average is an option, but how's that gonna be taken care of on the list that's being referenced for "stock" times. I personally don't like hero runs either outside of saying "hey I hit a PB", but I always like to back them up at least two more times to call it good.



I don't disagree at all. I've never said my car is stock or not with DRs, I've stood by my position that I go to the track for maximum performance. There seems to be an inordinate amount of folks here that are hung up on stock tires though. I plan to achieve max performance in the Hellcat before I do anything to add horsepower. I'll know when I get there as times will stabilize after I've done all I can other than add power.

It seems to me a lot of guys or gals here are getting hung up on stock tires and all that because they don't want to invest in a set of wheels and tires dedicated for the track, and this gives them an out. Racing ain't cheap once you really take the plunge, but it's worth it. I fought tires myself for two years before I finally saw the light and spent a few bucks. You can do it pretty cost effective if you know what you need and get things during sales.

You are only hung up on tires because the ones that come with the Hellcat suck. Does Dodge know you are out here making excuses for their screw up? I mean who makes a car with 707 straight line HP and puts skinny all season tires on it? You have to question their sanity.

[17CamaroZL1]

Well.....unfortunately...I missed a really good opportunity of putting a bone stock ZL1 in the 10s last night. The proof is in the slips. The car made up .09 seconds from the 330 mark to the finish, so if I had been even with my first pass at the 330 mark, that would've put me at an 11.045 et. So I would've only needed a .046 better time between the launch and the 330. It would likely have needed around a 1.77-1.78 60 in order to have at least been equal at the 330 mark. That would've left enough to make it happen if I had just matched my 1.72 60 earlier. That last launch actually felt better than the first one, but that doesn't always mean that is, so who knows.

For some reason my stability control light wasn't coming on as I was lining up to run. I tried everything, even turning off the car for a second. I tried going into PTM and it still wouldn't come on, nor go into PTM. I was thinking it would shut me down once it started spinning and getting sideways, but surprisingly it didn't. The problem was, I accidentally deep staged. Thought about throwing it in reverse real quick, but I knew the lights were about to come on, so I didn't. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference, but as you can see, it did.

Hopefully I get another chance in just as good, or even better air, with equal track prep.

[96MrBass]

Man! Congrats definitely consistent passes. Sucks when you're trying to find a tenth here and there lol.

[hotlap]

@17CamaroZL1.

[Blackdevil77]

Wow! If that was a 1.6x 60 foot, that would of been a 10 second pass for sure.

[big dave]

Damn Dave, that's getting it done. No doubt once you get it all together, you'll lay down that 10.99 pass.

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

Man! Congrats definitely consistent passes. Sucks when you're trying to find a tenth here and there lol.

Originally Posted by hotlap

@17CamaroZL1.

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

Wow! If that was a 1.6x 60 foot, that would of been a 10 second pass for sure.

If it had been the 1.72 I had earlier, pretty sure it would've been a 10. Oh well. I know it can for sure do it now. Just have to get similar conditions. I know there will still be better air to be had, if I can get the traction I need at that time as well. And......not deep stage ever again!!

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by big dave

Damn Dave, that's getting it done. No doubt once you get it all together, you'll lay down that 10.99 pass.

Thanks Dave! Yeah....I missed a good opportunity, but I'm sure there are more to come. I was told the DA was 866 at that time, so there's definitely better air still to find.

[HAMMERHEAD15]

Originally Posted by 17CamaroZL1

Well.....unfortunately...I missed a really good opportunity of putting a bone stock ZL1 in the 10s last night. The proof is in the slips. The car made up .09 seconds from the 330 mark to the finish, so if I had been even with my first pass at the 330 mark, that would've put me at an 11.045 et. So I would've only needed a .046 better time between the launch and the 330. It would likely have needed around a 1.77-1.78 60 in order to have at least been equal at the 330 mark. That would've left enough to make it happen if I had just matched my 1.72 60 earlier. That last launch actually felt better than the first one, but that doesn't always mean that is, so who knows.

For some reason my stability control light wasn't coming on as I was lining up to run. I tried everything, even turning off the car for a second. I tried going into PTM and it still wouldn't come on, nor go into PTM. I was thinking it would shut me down once it started spinning and getting sideways, but surprisingly it didn't. The problem was, I accidentally deep staged. Thought about throwing it in reverse real quick, but I knew the lights were about to come on, so I didn't. I didn't think it would make that big of a difference, but as you can see, it did.

Hopefully I get another chance in just as good, or even better air, with equal track prep.

If any of the tires are below 15 PSI it won't come on.

[Speedy1975]

Good to meet you David, nice ride and fast for sure. If you want a copy of this lemme know