[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

And I am going to disagree strongly regarding C7 455 hp vs. the 505 hp C6 Z06 (which only weighed 3,150ish lbs). The 2006 C6 Z06 ran 11.5 @ 127.1 mph in MT's test. From a trap speed perspective, that's on par or better than many of the C7 Z06 tests, surpasses every ZL1 test by any magazine, and significantly faster than any C7 test I can recall. Time-wise, on par w/ a current ZL1 (mid 11s). I would imagine today's better tires could translate that 2006 11.5 e.t. into an 11.2-11.3 e.t. I can't comment on handling, but the C6 Z06 was far from a slouch on a track. That C6 was a naturally aspirated beast.

Some of those numbers are a bit off. Just saying.

The C6 Z06 is an awesome car, but it's not even in the same league as the C7 Z06. Sure, it traps about the same, but it's also 450 lbs lighter. There ARE stock ZL1 cars that are running faster than the claimed 11.5 second factory quoted times.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So after much debating and discussing things and talking with a few guys who know cars like the back of their hands and after looking up other cars with mid/rear engine designs and DCT (Huracan, Spider, Gallardo, R8, etc)...I gotta say, I think I was wrong on my initial assessment of what the C8 will be capable of. I'm thinking the base C8 will be good for a low 11 and the Z51 just might be in the high 10s. I'm thinking this car is going to perform like nothing we've seen before. Although all those other cars I mentioned have more HP, they seem to have less TQ. And I do believe that GM severely underrated that engine and it's output is more like 520-550. With the weight of it, the design, trans, and engine, the C8 is going to be something special. I even think the base C8 without the Z51 package is going to beat the standard ZL1 and probably even the ZLE. Here are some new predictions:

Base:
0-60 3.1-3.3
1/4 mile 11.1 - 11.3

Z51:
0-60 2.7 - 2.95
1/4 mile 10.8 - 11.1

I'm not even gonna engage this but...why are you soo bitter lately? What's gotten into you?

The best comparison for acceleration will likely be to a 911 GT3 PDK. Similar power, but lighter. That car is a beast.

3318 lbs curb weight (approx. 200 lbs lighter than C8)
500 hp, low torque high revving engine
7 spd. PDK
0-60: 3.0 sec
0-100: 6.9 sec
1/4 mile: 11.1 @ 127 mph.

The Porsche has more weight over the rear tires than the C8 and is lighter - and it's a Porsche. They always seem to get the best acceleration out of their cars for the hp output. Plus, the GT3 engine loves to rev. I don't think the C8 Z51 can quite match the 1/4 e.t. or trap speed because of those reasons. I think I'm in the 11.3 @ 123 mph range for the Z51 C8 and a couple of tenths and 1-2 mph slower for the base.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

Some of those numbers are a bit off. Just saying.
The C6 Z06 is an awesome car, but it's not even in the same league as the C7 Z06. Also, there are stock ZL1 cars that are running faster than the claimed 11.5 second factory quoted time.

How are my C6 Z06 numbers off? Straight from the Motor Trend test for the 2006 Z06. And I did say only the trap speed was on par with a C7 Z06. Go look at the tests. 127.1 mph for the 2006 Z06 per MT.

I agree overall the C7 Z06 is better than the C6 Z06.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

How are my C6 Z06 numbers off? Straight from the Motor Trend test for the 2006 Z06. And I did say only the trap speed was on par with a C7 Z06. Go look at the tests. 127.1 mph for the 2006 Z06 per MT.

I agree overall the C7 Z06 is better than the C6 Z06.

Yep, that a 10.95 second 1/4 mile for the C7 Z06 still trumps the 11.5 second 1/4 mile for the C6 Z06. Now just imagine if the C6 weighed 400 pounds more with most of that weight near the front? It would perform just about as well as the C7 Stingray.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If you want to get technical multimatic builds the GT lol.

But think about in terms of just numbers though, how would a car with less HP, less tg, more weight and the same layout produce the same numbers. that just doesn't make sense to me. I would love to see it happen, I just don't see how it can. Corvette always punches way above it's weight class.

You do have a good point about the 5th to 6th, and same with the Z06. Fair points I have no counter argument.

I'm not an engineer so all I have to go on is speculation. But again like I said with the 5th Gen ZL1 vs the 6th gen SS, 125 HP deficit and 101 TQ deficit. Yet the SS matches the ZL1 despite the same layout and similar weight. The difference is in the trans, chassis, tires, ECU tuning, gearing, aero, etc. I asked if it is possible that GM is engineering and building better performance cars than Ford is capable of matching. Ok so the Ford GT is not built by Ford. Duly noted. But Ford is listed as the Manufacturer. I digress. Is it possible that GM is designing and building better performance vehicles than whoever is making the Ford GT?

Or how about we compare the Vette to another Vette. Say you had a C7 Stingray which runs a 12.2. If you upgraded the suspension, upgraded the tires, shaved some weight off, added 40 HP, replaced the 8 sp auto with an 8 sp DCT, changed the gearing, gave it better tuning, and switched it all to a mid engine design, do you think you could shave a full second off the quarter mile? Maybe a little more?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

Yep, that a 10.95 second 1/4 mile for the C7 Z06 still trumps the 11.5 second 1/4 mile for the C6 Z06. Now just imagine if the C6 weighed 400 pounds more with most of that weight near the front? It would perform just about as well as the C7 Stingray.

The C7 Stingray does not weigh as much as the Z06, which weighs 3,550 lbs. IIRC the C7 Stingray is around 3,350 lbs give or take (didn't look it up).

No doubt the C7 Z06 is faster around a track than the C6 Z06. It's a beast.

Anyway, for comparison, C7 Z06 acceleration tests:

Motor Trend:
0-60: 3.2 sec
1/4: 11.3 @ 126.2 mph

Car and Driver:
0-60: 3.0 sec
1/4: 11.1 @ 127 mph

I'm still impressed with the C6 Z06 trapping 127.1 mph via MT's test in 2006, even if it could "only" muster an 11.5 second e.t.

[Baldilocks01SS]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The C7 Stingray does not weigh as much as the Z06, which weighs 3,550 lbs. IIRC the C7 Stingray is around 3,350 lbs give or take (didn't look it up).

No doubt the C7 Z06 is faster around a track than the C6 Z06. It's a beast.

Anyway, for comparison, C7 Z06 acceleration tests:

Motor Trend:
0-60: 3.2 sec
1/4: 11.3 @ 126.2 mph

Car and Driver:
0-60: 3.0 sec
1/4: 11.1 @ 127 mph

I'm still impressed with the C6 Z06 trapping 127.1 mph via MT's test in 2006, even if it could "only" muster an 11.5 second e.t.

Car magazines really need some better test drivers.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Baldilocks01SS

Car magazines really need some better test drivers.

The magazines like MT and C&D don’t run on prepped drag strips, and they run stock tires at factory recommended pressures.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm not an engineer so all I have to go on is speculation. But again like I said with the 5th Gen ZL1 vs the 6th gen SS, 125 HP deficit and 101 TQ deficit. Yet the SS matches the ZL1 despite the same layout and similar weight. The difference is in the trans, chassis, tires, ECU tuning, gearing, aero, etc. I asked if it is possible that GM is engineering and building better performance cars than Ford is capable of matching. Ok so the Ford GT is not built by Ford. Duly noted. But Ford is listed as the Manufacturer. I digress. Is it possible that GM is designing and building better performance vehicles than whoever is making the Ford GT?

Or how about we compare the Vette to another Vette. Say you had a C7 Stingray which runs a 12.2. If you upgraded the suspension, upgraded the tires, shaved some weight off, added 40 HP, replaced the 8 sp auto with an 8 sp DCT, changed the gearing, gave it better tuning, and switched it all to a mid engine design, do you think you could shave a full second off the quarter mile? Maybe a little more?

Your 5th gen ZL1 vs 6th Gen example plays out just how you said, the 6th gen chassis is superior, as is the A8 to the A6. I think where a ton of that performance is made up is in the weight though. The 6th Gen SS weighs almost 400 pounds less than the ZL1.

We know the C8 dry weight is 3300, so add in fluids and its probably around 3500 which puts it right at the same weight as the C7. So it's not going to have a huge weight advantage like the 6th gen SS did compared to the 5th gen ZL1

It is entirely possible GM is building better performance cars, as evidenced by the last few years of cars they have put out. But is their engineering that much better that they can over come 150 HP difference, 80 FT/LB torque, and 200 less pounds in a car that has the same layout, and also uses a DCT? I guess that is what is hard for me to wrap my brain around. If it does it than the C8 will be literally one of the greatest performance cars of all time.

Your last example maybe. I don't know honestly lol. I can totally see the C8 ZL1 getting in the 11.5-11.2 range. I jsut don't see it being able to crack sub 11. I just don't think it has the HP

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The 5th Gen ZL1 was remarkably slow for a 580 hp car. 12.2 seconds @ something like 116 mph w/ 580 hp is terrible. The current SS can match that, and the GT* surpasses it by a tenth (marginal) and 4 mph trap speed (120 mph per C&D). The 5th gen ZL1 was heavy but not that heavy.

And I am going to disagree strongly regarding C7 455 hp vs. the 505 hp C6 Z06 (which only weighed 3,150ish lbs). The 2006 C6 Z06 ran 11.5 @ 127.1 mph in MT's test. From a trap speed perspective, that's on par or better than many of the C7 Z06 tests, surpasses every ZL1 test by any magazine, and significantly faster than any C7 test I can recall. Time-wise, on par w/ a current ZL1 (mid 11s). I would imagine today's better tires could translate that 2006 11.5 e.t. into an 11.2-11.3 e.t. I can't comment on handling, but the C6 Z06 was far from a slouch on a track. That C6 was a naturally aspirated beast.

Motortrend has actually tested a 2012 ZL1 at 12.1@ 117 and that was a manual, so while it's not totally fair to compare it to a10 Mustang GT's and a8/10 Camaro SS's your point still stands, pretty slow for the hp... plus manual GT350's match that with less power and manual Camaro SS's get close to that with a lot less power.

I think the c8 z51 will be plenty fast in 0 -60 and 1/4 but I don't think it's 1/4 will be as shockingly impressive as the 0-60 being that a lot of its acceleration advantages won't affect it's top end as much (depending how aerodynamic it is and the gearing on the dct). Still light weight, dct, and 495/470 should but it in the mid to low 11s, probably a rock behind a Porsche GT3.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Your 5th gen ZL1 vs 6th Gen example plays out just how you said, the 6th gen chassis is superior, as is the A8 to the A6. I think where a ton of that performance is made up is in the weight though. The 6th Gen SS weighs almost 400 pounds less than the ZL1.

We know the C8 dry weight is 3300, so add in fluids and its probably around 3500 which puts it right at the same weight as the C7. So it's not going to have a huge weight advantage like the 6th gen SS did compared to the 5th gen ZL1

It is entirely possible GM is building better performance cars, as evidenced by the last few years of cars they have put out. But is their engineering that much better that they can over come 150 HP difference, 80 FT/LB torque, and 200 less pounds in a car that has the same layout, and also uses a DCT? I guess that is what is hard for me to wrap my brain around. If it does it than the C8 will be literally one of the greatest performance cars of all time.

Your last example maybe. I don't know honestly lol. I can totally see the C8 ZL1 getting in the 11.5-11.2 range. I jsut don't see it being able to crack sub 11. I just don't think it has the HP

Some of the performance is due to weight reduction, but not as drastic as one might think. Look at power to weight ratio of the two cars:

6th gen SS: Approx. 8.3 lbs/hp
5th gen ZL1: Approx 7.1 lbs/ hp

To get the 6th gen SS to 7.1 lbs/ hp it would have to have about 530 hp. I think the improvement must be in traction control logic/programming, and trans. gearing. I would also say putting the power to the ground in general, except they trap about the same speed as well (116 mph M6 SS vs 117 mph 5th gen ZL1 M6). But it is crazy to think a 455 hp Camaro can 1/4 mile (both e.t. and trap speed) about as well as a ZL1 580 hp Camaro. Boggles the mind.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The 5th Gen ZL1 was remarkably slow for a 580 hp car. 12.2 seconds @ something like 116 mph w/ 580 hp is terrible. The current SS can match that, and the GT* surpasses it by a tenth (marginal) and 4 mph trap speed (120 mph per C&D). The 5th gen ZL1 was heavy but not that heavy.

That is a bit of an exaggeration. Look at how far tires, suspension, and tuning has come since then. Even the transmissions. It is an entirely different game now. Heck, the S197 GT500s (pre 13/14) weren't doing much better than the 5th Gen ZL1s. Those GT500s had 540 and 550 HP, weighed less, had a solid axle, and yet some of them were barely mid 12s. I think one test had them at 12.7. Running a 12.2 in a car with over 500 HP these days might be a bit sorry. But back then that was pretty fast for a warrantied car with IRS and full options and could go around a track pretty solid.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Your 5th gen ZL1 vs 6th Gen example plays out just how you said, the 6th gen chassis is superior, as is the A8 to the A6. I think where a ton of that performance is made up is in the weight though. The 6th Gen SS weighs almost 400 pounds less than the ZL1.

We know the C8 dry weight is 3300, so add in fluids and its probably around 3500 which puts it right at the same weight as the C7. So it's not going to have a huge weight advantage like the 6th gen SS did compared to the 5th gen ZL1

It is entirely possible GM is building better performance cars, as evidenced by the last few years of cars they have put out. But is their engineering that much better that they can over come 150 HP difference, 80 FT/LB torque, and 200 less pounds in a car that has the same layout, and also uses a DCT? I guess that is what is hard for me to wrap my brain around. If it does it than the C8 will be literally one of the greatest performance cars of all time.

Your last example maybe. I don't know honestly lol. I can totally see the C8 ZL1 getting in the 11.5-11.2 range. I jsut don't see it being able to crack sub 11. I just don't think it has the HP

You're underestimating how much a car can do when it is built properly.

Ok so another example is the 18 GT. It is only a mere 25 HP more than the 15-17 GTs. Weight is about the same. They went from the A6 to the A10 trans and threw in a drag mode. What was the result? The GT went from being a 12.9 to a 12.1. And weren't some people claiming that 11.8 from Evans was legit? So if a 460 HP Mustang GT can hit a claimed 11.8 that was defended fiercely, then how is it soo hard to believe that a mid engine Vette with 30 more HP than that GT and a DCT and on a completely new chassis with amazing tires and modern ECU programming can do 11 flat? I mean, if you wanna compare GM and Ford.

Originally Posted by shaffe

It is entirely possible GM is building better performance cars, as evidenced by the last few years of cars they have put out. But is their engineering that much better that they can over come 150 HP difference, 80 FT/LB torque, and 200 less pounds in a car that has the same layout, and also uses a DCT? I guess that is what is hard for me to wrap my brain around. If it does it than the C8 will be literally one of the greatest performance cars of all time.

Your last example maybe. I don't know honestly lol. I can totally see the C8 ZL1 getting in the 11.5-11.2 range. I jsut don't see it being able to crack sub 11. I just don't think it has the HP

I think the problem is that you're trying to rationalize it based off the Ford GT. When you really think about it, maybe the F-GT was not really doing what it should have been doing. Or maybe it should have been faster. Aren't guys in the Mustang GT camp claiming that they run 10s easily with nothing more than suspension mods and better tires? And that is a 460 HP car. There are plenty of comparisons to show what the C8 Z51 should be capable of. And as mentioned before, if the Chief Corvette Engineer and the Corvette Racing Program Manager both claim that the car is faster than the Z06 in every way, then that holds a lot of weight.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You're underestimating how much a car can do when it is built properly.

Ok so another example is the 18 GT. It is only a mere 25 HP more than the 15-17 GTs. Weight is about the same. They went from the A6 to the A10 trans and threw in a drag mode. What was the result? The GT went from being a 12.9 to a 12.1. And weren't some people claiming that 11.8 from Evans was legit? So if a 460 HP Mustang GT can hit a claimed 11.8 that was defended fiercely, then how is it soo hard to believe that a mid engine Vette with 30 more HP than that GT and a DCT and on a completely new chassis with amazing tires and modern ECU programming can do 11 flat? I mean, if you wanna compare GM and Ford.

That's true you got me there, only thing I can say is the A6 while stout was not a great transmission at all especially compared to the A10. We saw the A10 really didn't do anything for the Camaro compared to the A8.

I'm jsut trying to compare the C8 with something close to it. so we are looking at mid engine cars with DCTs. All the ones that are in the 11 flat or high tens are all either lighter than the C8, have more HP, or both. I am just trying to figure out how the C8 will be as fast or faster than comparible cars when it's heavier, and down on HP

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think the problem is that you're trying to rationalize it based off the Ford GT. When you really think about it, maybe the F-GT was not really doing what it should have been doing. Or maybe it should have been faster. Aren't guys in the Mustang GT camp claiming that they run 10s easily with nothing more than suspension mods and better tires? And that is a 460 HP car. There are plenty of comparisons to show what the C8 Z51 should be capable of. And as mentioned before, if the Chief Corvette Engineer and the Corvette Racing Program Manager both claim that the car is faster than the Z06 in every way, then that holds a lot of weight.

I just pulled the Ford GT numbers from a C&D test because its a mid engine car, DCT just like the C8. the numbers the ford GT ran seem to be in the range of other mid engine cars of similar power- that is where the hang up is for me on the C8. All these other mid engine DCT cars that have 550+HP are in that 11 flat high 10 range and the C8 is going to do it with 495HP and being heavier than most? That is the part that just has me confused.

If we want to get away from Ford we could use the Mclaren 570S as an example. 0-60 sub 3 and 10.7 1/4 mile. 562HP, weighs 3200 pounds

Don't get me wrong I want it to be true. I know it probably looks like I am arguing against or trying to bash it. I just see all the other examples, and wonder how is the C8 going to do the same with less power and more weight.

And those mustang guys are idiots.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Some of the performance is due to weight reduction, but not as drastic as one might think. Look at power to weight ratio of the two cars:

6th gen SS: Approx. 8.3 lbs/hp
5th gen ZL1: Approx 7.1 lbs/ hp

To get the 6th gen SS to 7.1 lbs/ hp it would have to have about 530 hp. I think the improvement must be in traction control logic/programming, and trans. gearing. I would also say putting the power to the ground in general, except they trap about the same speed as well (116 mph M6 SS vs 117 mph 5th gen ZL1 M6). But it is crazy to think a 455 hp Camaro can 1/4 mile (both e.t. and trap speed) about as well as a ZL1 580 hp Camaro. Boggles the mind.

That is why I traded my gen5 ZL1 for a new gen6 2SS as soon as I could. The gen6 SS has similar speed but it lighter and more nimble ...with a much better interior. My first 1/4 mile pass in my 16 A8 2SS beat my best ever gen5 M6 ZL1 time by 3 tenths.

Chevy under promised and over delivered with the gen6 Camaro's performance. The car jumped a category. We should expect the same from the C8