[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by 90503

If I recall, the 6thGen originally eliminated the LS Camaros from the line up. They had 1LT and 2LT only for the V-6 and I-4....Then came the V-6 1LE....Lo and hehold, to boost sales, the LS versions magically returned...Watered down versions of models are the foundation of the whole line-up...More and more offerings come around...ZL1-1LE, etc....Sales aren't going up because of high-end, high priced models...

Adding a V-8 option in the progression of engine options with low end trim, is not a watered down version of anything...It's simply another option that Camaro does not offer in the line up without a major leap in cost, that could be avoided with an LS trim Camaro with a V-8....Like you say, not to be rude but multiple versions, power trains and trim levels are available that weren't prohibited by saying it's too much to cost to develop. Might it need a few tweeks different from the V-6?....Sure, it will. But it's not undoable or a threat to the current 1SS or 2SS models.

To say an "economical" V-8 is impossible or too much development required is to overlook what has been done already to see that it is doable. Keeping the V-8 priced out of reach for some is a huge market that Camaro is missing out on....And they won't just buy a V-6 or I-4 only because that is more affordable.

The 1LS trim for 17 and 18 is just the same as a manual 1LT 16.

Exact same equipment.

Chevy could've kept the same name for the trim, but they didn't want to appear distressed in the second year of production by lowering the price on a trim. So they turned the manual 1LT into the 1LS and the 1LT into the old 1LT+8A option to artificially lower the starting price.

No equipment changed. It's the same base model it was before with a different name.

It's stupid, but that's how they decided to do it.

[Kise]

Originally Posted by 90503

If I recall, the 6thGen originally eliminated the LS Camaros from the line up. They had 1LT and 2LT only for the V-6 and I-4....Then came the V-6 1LE....Lo and hehold, to boost sales, the LS versions magically returned...Watered down versions of models are the foundation of the whole line-up...More and more offerings come around...ZL1-1LE, etc....Sales aren't going up because of high-end, high priced models...

Adding a V-8 option in the progression of engine options with low end trim, is not a watered down version of anything...It's simply another option that Camaro does not offer in the line up without a major leap in cost, that could be avoided with an LS trim Camaro with a V-8....Like you say, not to be rude but multiple versions, power trains and trim levels are available that weren't prohibited by saying it's too much to cost to develop. Might it need a few tweeks different from the V-6?....Sure, it will. But it's not undoable or a threat to the current 1SS or 2SS models.

To say an "economical" V-8 is impossible or too much development required is to overlook what has been done already to see that it is doable. Keeping the V-8 priced out of reach for some is a huge market that Camaro is missing out on....And they won't just buy a V-6 or I-4 only because that is more affordable.

as for provided in bold, they will because people have priorities and responsibilities before a car payment. an aggressively high one at that. you can get a used gen 6 SS for under 30k if its that large of a priority to have a v8. then again v8s tend to be more costly when fixing and maintenance.
im not trying to knock the idea my point was with the smaller market that it welcomes they will have to spend atleast 20 million with development and producing these because almost everything mechanical wise would need redone to function efficiently and properly on a v8 with no gadgets. that may be a tough tumble for gm as making the money to break profit would be a long road.... and they already have 6 models of v8 packages to choose from. maybe more of a v6 option that competes with the ss like the twin turbo on the cts considering they use the same Alpha 1.

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by 2SSRS@Gen5diy

Dont kill the name of the Z/28 for the sake of a cheap V8, go with any other name that GM has for a camaro, both times GM used the Z/28 it was for track cars, if you want a striped down V8 that is no more then an LS1 there has to be a name that can be put on it that want Damage the Z/28 name brand.


IMO GM will not use the Z/28 name for cars that dont stand up to the heritage of past Z/28 car.

Maybe I should clarify track package...
I meant adding the important bits of the ZL1 1LE stuff to the proposed 1LS V8.
DSSVs
Wider, stickier tires, etc
It would have more interior goodies than the Z/28 did and perform just about as well for half the price new.
You can talk about degrading a name all day, but let's be honest. Most people think Z/28 (ok, Z28) as being just "the V8 Camaro"
It doesn't have to be faster than a ZL1 1LE.
Chevrolet tried to make it special last time and it blew up in their faces with cars sitting on lots for their second birthdays.

People are bitching about the price of the new Camaros. What better way to make some sales and get good word of mouth going than to introduce a cheap V8 model for the guys who just want something fun
AND
a Z model that people can actually afford for the first time since 2002.

[2SSRS@Gen5diy]

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

Maybe I should clarify track package...
I meant adding the important bits of the ZL1 1LE stuff to the proposed 1LS V8.
DSSVs
Wider, stickier tires, etc
It would have more interior goodies than the Z/28 did and perform just about as well for half the price new.
You can talk about degrading a name all day, but let's be honest. Most people think Z/28 (ok, Z28) as being just "the V8 Camaro"
It doesn't have to be faster than a ZL1 1LE.
Chevrolet tried to make it special last time and it blew up in their faces with cars sitting on lots for their second birthdays.

People are bitching about the price of the new Camaros. What better way to make some sales and get good word of mouth going than to introduce a cheap V8 model for the guys who just want something fun
AND
a Z model that people can actually afford for the first time since 2002.

My point was that the Z/28 name needs to stay the same as the 1st and 5th gen cars, if you want a cheep car you can use the z28 logos all day long, but don't think that will be what most want, the want the Z/28 name plate on a 40K car, don't think that will happen.

[JusticePete]

The Z/28 was a great success for the designed purposes. #1 it was first and foremost a parts car. Second, it is a great handling car that blew the automotive press away. Third, the Z allowed GM / Chevrolet to use up the remaining EPA waivers to wind down LS7 production. Last but not least, it gave TEAM Camaro the data and experience to build the ZL1 1LE.

GM and TEAM Camaro will tell you the Z/28 was a success for them. I think you will get the same response about the 6th Gen. The ALPHA underpinnings are on the ATS, CTS and Camaro. While the sales numbers are not huge for any one model, the three together are profitable, so profitable a company like Ford only dreams about selling the chassis the Mustang is on in those numbers.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

Maybe I should clarify track package...
I meant adding the important bits of the ZL1 1LE stuff to the proposed 1LS V8.
DSSVs
Wider, stickier tires, etc
It would have more interior goodies than the Z/28 did and perform just about as well for half the price new.
You can talk about degrading a name all day, but let's be honest. Most people think Z/28 (ok, Z28) as being just "the V8 Camaro"
It doesn't have to be faster than a ZL1 1LE.
Chevrolet tried to make it special last time and it blew up in their faces with cars sitting on lots for their second birthdays.

People are bitching about the price of the new Camaros. What better way to make some sales and get good word of mouth going than to introduce a cheap V8 model for the guys who just want something fun
AND
a Z model that people can actually afford for the first time since 2002.

If they do ever make another Z28 it would have to be faster around the track then the ZL1/1Le other wise it makes no sense to build it . And if they did and priced it at $65k it would be a bargain. There is no reason to build a Z28 that would basically fall between the V61Le and the SS1Le .

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

If they do ever make another Z28 it would have to be faster around the track then the ZL1/1Le other wise it makes no sense to build it . And if they did and priced it at $65k it would be a bargain. There is no reason to build a Z28 that would basically fall between the V61Le and the SS1Le .

Yes it would be priced between the 1LEs, but would likely outperform the SS 1LE by dint of being lighter (7" instead of 8" screen and extra speakers in the SS Bose system, lighter rear window from ZL1 1LE, no LED/HID lights and ballasts, no leather heeated/cooled seats etc)

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

Yes it would be priced between the 1LEs, but would likely outperform the SS 1LE by dint of being lighter (7" instead of 8" screen and extra speakers in the SS Bose system, lighter rear window from ZL1 1LE, no LED/HID lights and ballasts, no leather heeated/cooled seats etc)

No i don't think so ,all it would be is the camaro version of mustangs PP1 , and that we don't need.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The Z/28 was a great success for the designed purposes. #1 it was first and foremost a parts car. Second, it is a great handling car that blew the automotive press away. Third, the Z allowed GM / Chevrolet to use up the remaining EPA waivers to wind down LS7 production. Last but not least, it gave TEAM Camaro the data and experience to build the ZL1 1LE.

GM and TEAM Camaro will tell you the Z/28 was a success for them. I think you will get the same response about the 6th Gen. The ALPHA underpinnings are on the ATS, CTS and Camaro. While the sales numbers are not huge for any one model, the three together are profitable, so profitable a company like Ford only dreams about selling the chassis the Mustang is on in those numbers.

If we are just talking straight numbers


2017

Mustang 81866
Camaro 67940
CTS 10344
ATS 13100

The Alpha trio total volume was 9518 cars more than the S550, that's not a huge gap, in 2016 it was even less and same for 15.

Now profit is something no one knows so if you want to argue the Alpha is more profitable I would love to see the profit each makes on each model lol

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If we are just talking straight numbers


2017

Mustang 81866
Camaro 67940
CTS 10344
ATS 13100

The Alpha trio total volume was 9518 cars more than the S550, that's not a huge gap, in 2016 it was even less and same for 15.

Now profit is something no one knows so if you want to argue the Alpha is more profitable I would love to see the profit each makes on each model lol

How many Mustangs sold in China compared to Cadillacs?

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If we are just talking straight numbers


2017

Mustang 81866
Camaro 67940
CTS 10344
ATS 13100

The Alpha trio total volume was 9518 cars more than the S550, that's not a huge gap, in 2016 it was even less and same for 15.

Now profit is something no one knows so if you want to argue the Alpha is more profitable I would love to see the profit each makes on each model lol

But 21,285 Mustangs were rental cars compared to only 2,718 Camaro's. Camaro’s average transaction price was $5,722 higher than Mustang.

True that we don’t know the profitability of each model but overall Aplha volume is higher and they are all selling for quite a bit more than the discount S550. Cadillac’s and +$5,722 Camaro’s or 9,518 fewer cheapo Mustangs?

Retail ATP's 2017 (JDPin)
Camaro: $39,514
Challenger: $35,498
Mustang: $33,792

Retail Sales 2017
Camaro: 65,222
Mustang: 60,581
Challenger: 45,821

[GrimReaperSS]

My mistake earlier "Bring back the Beretta name?", meant to say the Berlinetta name instead of Z/28, for a budget V8 car. As for the more recent comments, I'd be happy seeing a Z slot in between SS 1LE and ZL1 1LE.

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

No i don't think so ,all it would be is the camaro version of mustangs PP1 , and that we don't need.

So if you took the extra speakers out of your 1LE, replaced the 8" MyLink with the 7" MyLink, ejected the heavier lighting components (ZL1 1LE and V6 1LE save 7 lbs by not having the lower LED DRLs), and added the thinner rear window from the ZL1 1LE and maybe a lighter exhaust than the 32 lb NPP suitcase, it wouldn't improve your car's performance?
If you have a 2SS, get rid of the leather heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, wireless charge pad, HomeLink, interior spectrum lighting/door sills to just add to the weight difference.


My proposed 1LS V8 would just have the needed hardware to cope with the extra power of the engine. Anything that doesn't make it faster isn't included.
We can use the 1LS V6 as an example. The 1LE package costs $4,500 and covers the upgrades to the chassis that the SS gets standard (aux cooling, brakes, diff, springs, roll bars, gas tank, etc) along with the cosmetics included in the $1,950 RS package (20" wheels, HID headlights, LED taillights, etc), $895 dual-mode exhaust along with 1LE-specific cosmetics like the vinyl-wrap hood and mirrors, and suede shifter and wheel.

1950+895=2845, so it really only costs 1655 minus the cosmetic stuff ($500?) to upgrade the chassis to handle the LT1.
So, $1,200 for the sake of easy numbers on top of the $28,395 for a 1LS V6 gives us $29,395 plus the added cost of the LT1. Call it a $4,000 upgrade and we have a $33,395 1LS V8 that competes nicely with the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T

For an extra $7,000, we add the important bits of the SS and ZL1 1LE packages like eLSD, DSSVs, and 19" wheels in SS 1LE width, light rear window, gutted muffler, and some aero bits.
Call it Camaro Z/28.
Call it Camaro 1LS V8 Proletariat Performance Punch.
Call it Camaro Berlinetta for all I care, but a $40,395 high-performance Camaro would be a ton of fun and sell well enough to justify any investment in it by GM by being a parts car with a great name just like the 14-15 Z.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS

So if you took the extra speakers out of your 1LE, replaced the 8" MyLink with the 7" MyLink, ejected the heavier lighting components (ZL1 1LE and V6 1LE save 7 lbs by not having the lower LED DRLs), and added the thinner rear window from the ZL1 1LE and maybe a lighter exhaust than the 32 lb NPP suitcase, it wouldn't improve your car's performance?
If you have a 2SS, get rid of the leather heated/cooled seats, heated steering wheel, wireless charge pad, HomeLink, interior spectrum lighting/door sills to just add to the weight difference.


My proposed 1LS V8 would just have the needed hardware to cope with the extra power of the engine. Anything that doesn't make it faster isn't included.
We can use the 1LS V6 as an example. The 1LE package costs $4,500 and covers the upgrades to the chassis that the SS gets standard (aux cooling, brakes, diff, springs, roll bars, gas tank, etc) along with the cosmetics included in the $1,950 RS package (20" wheels, HID headlights, LED taillights, etc), $895 dual-mode exhaust along with 1LE-specific cosmetics like the vinyl-wrap hood and mirrors, and suede shifter and wheel.

1950+895=2845, so it really only costs 1655 minus the cosmetic stuff ($500?) to upgrade the chassis to handle the LT1.
So, $1,200 for the sake of easy numbers on top of the $28,395 for a 1LS V6 gives us $29,395 plus the added cost of the LT1. Call it a $4,000 upgrade and we have a $33,395 1LS V8 that competes nicely with the Mustang GT and Challenger R/T

For an extra $7,000, we add the important bits of the SS and ZL1 1LE packages like eLSD, DSSVs, and 19" wheels in SS 1LE width, light rear window, gutted muffler, and some aero bits.
Call it Camaro Z/28.
Call it Camaro 1LS V8 Proletariat Performance Punch.
Call it Camaro Berlinetta for all I care, but a $40,395 high-performance Camaro would be a ton of fun and sell well enough to justify any investment in it by GM by being a parts car with a great name just like the 14-15 Z.

There is a reason we have no Z28 right now , i am not sure why that is but i would bet it has something to do with just how good the SS1Le and the Zl1/1Le is on the track and just makes the Z28 unnecessary , at this time anyway. The SS 1Le is a great buy . You will never see DSSV,eLSD and a LT1 on a weight reduced alpha platform for $40k , thats crazy talk. The car you describe is a 60k car all day . Now they could do a twin turbo v6 on sitting on DSSV ,eLSD that would be interesting and may run in the $50sK range .