[arpad_m]

The real competition for the GTD is the Corvette ZR1X, and it's 40% cheaper, has much more horsepower and ran a 6:49 at the Nürburgring.

The GTD is obviously way superior than a regular Mustang GT, but it's still only a Mustang.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

I have to admit I got to see the GTD before all the spy videos were released from Road Atlanta over a year ago. I was there and joined the private testing with my ZLE. There were a couple Porsche GT2 & GT3RS vehicles as well as one FordGT in the mix that day. The GTD went through some very extensive testing, cooling systems and programming for the aero and suspension to keep it from bottoming out... watching Max Verstappenn, I guess that didn't happen!

Save the transaxle, we have a superior eLSD which GM fought tooth & nail to keep that technology strong for the ZR1. At that time I was making just over 700whp and was running between 1:36s-1:40 lap times. The best the GTD made on that day with just their Engineer driving was a 1:41 lap. I will say that the FordGT broke the track record with a blistering 1:15 lap and that stood until Ferris wiped his Arse with the Fords and his twin-turbo Corvette killing all records with a 1:13 lap.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

The real competition for the GTD is the Corvette ZR1X, and it's 40% cheaper, has much more horsepower and ran a 6:49 at the Nürburgring.

The GTD is obviously way superior than a regular Mustang GT, but it's still only a Mustang.

Actually the better comparison is the ZR1(not x) because its RWD. What has gotten overlooked is that the ZR1 still went quicker than the GTD at half the cost, built on an assembly line and will be mass produced. The ZR1x went slightly quicker than the ZR1 and both were also driven by skilled amateur drivers compared to the GTD driven by a highly skilled pro driver. Since the ZR1x technically holds the quickest lap record, it gets the most attention but the GTD is a RWD platform like the ZR1. The ZR1x sounds like it should be more impressive based on its additional power over the ZR1 but many people don't realize there's a weight penalty for AWD, and being a hybrid. A highly skilled driver can often drive a RWD car quicker than an AWD car, and the electric motors decouple after 160mph and with a track as long as the Ring, there's many times where the car would not be using its extra HP from the electric motors.

I think both of those cars would go 5-10 seconds quicker if driven by a pro driver.

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Guess I learned something new today. I was told that it was modified GT but you may very well be right. My source is not "hands on".

Savagegeese just confirmed it. Here is their video where they got to interview all the engineers. Hopefully I am linking it properly. Really neat video and it’s really cool how these guys are able to get a hold of engineers for vehicles. They even got to speak to some of the folks who made the C6 Z06 over a decade later in their C6Z video!

http://https://youtu.be/ADairjkcDzY?si=gu-Mavv4dk8gJs36

[Sweet Emotion]

Despite all the 'race car' goodness - the GTD still weighs 650lbs more than a ZL1/1LE. Crazy. Weight ruins everything.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Actually the better comparison is the ZR1(not x) because its RWD. What has gotten overlooked is that the ZR1 still went quicker than the GTD at half the cost, built on an assembly line and will be mass produced. The ZR1x went slightly quicker than the ZR1 and both were also driven by skilled amateur drivers compared to the GTD driven by a highly skilled pro driver. Since the ZR1x technically holds the quickest lap record, it gets the most attention but the GTD is a RWD platform like the ZR1. The ZR1x sounds like it should be more impressive based on its additional power over the ZR1 but many people don't realize there's a weight penalty for AWD, and being a hybrid. A highly skilled driver can often drive a RWD car quicker than an AWD car, and the electric motors decouple after 160mph and with a track as long as the Ring, there's many times where the car would not be using its extra HP from the electric motors.

I think both of those cars would go 5-10 seconds quicker if driven by a pro driver.

Originally Posted by Sweet Emotion

Despite all the 'race car' goodness - the GTD still weighs 650lbs more than a ZL1/1LE. Crazy. Weight ruins everything.

Currently, RWD with programmable front electric motors is the way. As you said, the electric propulsion can be turned down to 0% if/when needed for genuine RWD behavior, and there is no way a high horsepower RWD-only car can utilize all its power until tire technology catches up with the 800-900 lb-ft of torque modern sports cars want to put down on the pavement, if that will ever even happen.

I understand why you think that RWD vs RWD is a "fairer" comparison, but that was a conscious engineering decision by Ford, and insisting on specific powertrain aspects for comparison excludes innovative design changes. I for one wouldn't exclude the ZR1X solely based on its two tiny electric motors. That said, even the ZR1 is better than the Mustang GTD, and it's even more value for the money.

Oh, and as to weight, the ZR1X with all the extra hardware is still 300 lbs lighter than the mega porky GTD, while still being 40% cheaper. I am the farthest from being a Corvette fan, never had one and probably won't ever buy one no matter the price, but in this comparison, there is no question about which one is superior.

[Patriot Motorsports USA]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Actually the better comparison is the ZR1(not x) because its RWD. What has gotten overlooked is that the ZR1 still went quicker than the GTD at half the cost, built on an assembly line and will be mass produced. The ZR1x went slightly quicker than the ZR1 and both were also driven by skilled amateur drivers compared to the GTD driven by a highly skilled pro driver. Since the ZR1x technically holds the quickest lap record, it gets the most attention but the GTD is a RWD platform like the ZR1. The ZR1x sounds like it should be more impressive based on its additional power over the ZR1 but many people don't realize there's a weight penalty for AWD, and being a hybrid. A highly skilled driver can often drive a RWD car quicker than an AWD car, and the electric motors decouple after 160mph and with a track as long as the Ring, there's many times where the car would not be using its extra HP from the electric motors.

I think both of those cars would go 5-10 seconds quicker if driven by a pro driver.

Here's the issue with comparing the ZR1, ZR1X and the Z06 data from the Nurburgring to any other "Real Racecar Driver" making those laps.

How many of you have actually raced your ZLE and TRUSTED the "Nannies" to get you through the turns at FULL THROTTLE, just like it says in the Performance Supplement Handbook?

I have decades of track and wheel-to-wheel experience and it took nearly a year for me to unlock my fears of writing-off my car and cashing in the Agreed Value to leave it balled'up in a wall. It was not until I rode in a C8 Z06 at Road Atlanta with one of the Corvette Racing drivers, that I even began to embrace how incredible the PTM modes can be at delivering power to exactly the arc I choose going through a corner flat out and watching the magic happen.

In one of my videos, I took Dan Croteau who is the owner of our Project Shocker and a 30-year driving instructor for BMW (which have More Nannies than a Retirement Home) for a ride in my car after he had been driving his car for two days at Road Atlanta, to show him exactly as I was shown in the Z06... what the Nannies can do for your driving. You physically cannot do everything the car is capable of... and every time I see someone wanting to change the wheel sizes, going square and all the things that mess up the input/outputs of what the computers are doing, I just sigh in disbelief as there is SO MUCH being left not on the table but now being swept into the trash.

It takes time to trust these systems. I tell everyone to go out on a dry track, put the car in "Track Wet" mode, then after a few laps, switch it to "Dry" after you implement full throttle apexes to exits focusing the steering wheel exactly where you want the car to go. If you try to outsmart the systems and add too much countersteering instead of keeping the wheel focused on the exit, guess what happens...??? The car changes direction because it "THINKS" that is where you want to go now! Watch ANY Mustang or BMW video leaving a Cars & Coffee event and that is what happens WITHOUT an eLSD and just using brake intervention for directional control.

Now add a PRO Driver who has most likely honed his craft, knows everything and wants to prove that to the World. Without any of this knowledge... he MIGHT, just might run a faster time... but he will work twice as hard to get it and that is simply why GM chose to use their own drivers.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Currently, RWD with programmable front electric motors is the way. As you said, the electric propulsion can be turned down to 0% if/when needed for genuine RWD behavior, and there is no way a high horsepower RWD-only car can utilize all its power until tire technology catches up with the 800-900 lb-ft of torque modern sports cars want to put down on the pavement, if that will ever even happen.

I understand why you think that RWD vs RWD is a "fairer" comparison, but that was a conscious engineering decision by Ford, and insisting on specific powertrain aspects for comparison excludes innovative design changes. I for one wouldn't exclude the ZR1X solely based on its two tiny electric motors. That said, even the ZR1 is better than the Mustang GTD, and it's even more value for the money.

Oh, and as to weight, the ZR1X with all the extra hardware is still 300 lbs lighter than the mega porky GTD, while still being 40% cheaper. I am the farthest from being a Corvette fan, never had one and probably won't ever buy one no matter the price, but in this comparison, there is no question about which one is superior.

Don't agree with everything you stated but absolutely, both ZR1 and ZR1x are both superior to the GTD without question. I think if you put them on a smaller tighter track, the ZR1 twins will leave the GTD for dust on any track you put them on.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by Patriot Motorsports USA

Here's the issue with comparing the ZR1, ZR1X and the Z06 data from the Nurburgring to any other "Real Racecar Driver" making those laps.

How many of you have actually raced your ZLE and TRUSTED the "Nannies" to get you through the turns at FULL THROTTLE, just like it says in the Performance Supplement Handbook?

I have decades of track and wheel-to-wheel experience and it took nearly a year for me to unlock my fears of writing-off my car and cashing in the Agreed Value to leave it balled'up in a wall. It was not until I rode in a C8 Z06 at Road Atlanta with one of the Corvette Racing drivers, that I even began to embrace how incredible the PTM modes can be at delivering power to exactly the arc I choose going through a corner flat out and watching the magic happen.

In one of my videos, I took Dan Croteau who is the owner of our Project Shocker and a 30-year driving instructor for BMW (which have More Nannies than a Retirement Home) for a ride in my car after he had been driving his car for two days at Road Atlanta, to show him exactly as I was shown in the Z06... what the Nannies can do for your driving. You physically cannot do everything the car is capable of... and every time I see someone wanting to change the wheel sizes, going square and all the things that mess up the input/outputs of what the computers are doing, I just sigh in disbelief as there is SO MUCH being left not on the table but now being swept into the trash.

It takes time to trust these systems. I tell everyone to go out on a dry track, put the car in "Track Wet" mode, then after a few laps, switch it to "Dry" after you implement full throttle apexes to exits focusing the steering wheel exactly where you want the car to go. If you try to outsmart the systems and add too much countersteering instead of keeping the wheel focused on the exit, guess what happens...??? The car changes direction because it "THINKS" that is where you want to go now! Watch ANY Mustang or BMW video leaving a Cars & Coffee event and that is what happens WITHOUT an eLSD and just using brake intervention for directional control.

Now add a PRO Driver who has most likely honed his craft, knows everything and wants to prove that to the World. Without any of this knowledge... he MIGHT, just might run a faster time... but he will work twice as hard to get it and that is simply why GM chose to use their own drivers.

While I understand the point you're trying to make that electronic assists should be well understood to extract a good time out of the car, I disagree that a pro driver will not beat GM's engineers by a significant margin on a track as long as the Ring. Misha has already reviewed the video footage and provided a breakdown of the Ring lap on Youtube and showed that the GM engineers did not take ideal lines very often, so he estimated there was probably 10 seconds left on the table. I trust his expertise of the track which matters a lot on a 7 minute lap.

[AZ_1LE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

Don't agree with everything you stated but absolutely, both ZR1 and ZR1x are both superior to the GTD without question. I think if you put them on a smaller tighter track, the ZR1 twins will leave the GTD for dust on any track you put them on.

I think you're underestimating the GTD and understimating how much the 'ring was an advantage for the ZR1's with its extremely long straights.

[Z OH 6]

Originally Posted by AZ_1LE

I think you're underestimating the GTD and understimating how much the 'ring was an advantage for the ZR1's with its extremely long straights.

I don't think I'm underestimating the GTD at all, I think you're underestimating how much a mid-engine platform helps with putting the power down which is even more important on smaller tracks. The ZR1 already set 5 American track lap records. The ZR1's time at Watkins Glen was over 5 seconds faster than the Porsche 992.1 GT3 RS.

[AZ_1LE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I don't think I'm underestimating the GTD at all, I think you're underestimating how much a mid-engine platform helps with putting the power down which is even more important on smaller tracks. The ZR1 already set 5 American track lap records. The ZR1's time at Watkins Glen was over 5 seconds faster than the Porsche 992.1 GT3 RS.

We shall see. GTD's transaxle setup makes the weight distribution point mute, and you have to give it some big credit for basically setting a near identical time when down 400 HP.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by AZ_1LE

We shall see. GTD's transaxle setup makes the weight distribution point mute, and you have to give it some big credit for basically setting a near identical time when down 400 HP.

Does it really? C7 was front mid-engine with rear transaxle. Same setup as GTD. C8 is next level compared to C7 on a trim by trim basis, largely because of the shift to rear mid-engine.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Does it really? C7 was front mid-engine with rear transaxle. Same setup as GTD. C8 is next level compared to C7 on a trim by trim basis, largely because of the shift to rear mid-engine.

AMG GTR Black Series is front mid-engine with rear transaxle, and beat the ZR1X despite the AMG having *530* less horsepower. So, while I do expect the ZR1X to eventually beat that time, it has not to date. But with 530 more horsepower and AWD, it obviously should. My point is that while I also agree that rear mid-engine is the way to go, AMG proved the front mid-engine with rear transaxle configuration has a very high ceiling. I think Ford has more work to do to get there.